Trying to decide on my how to do my free stands.

[rockm]

Geez...

You’re making this MUCH harder than it needs to be! Why do you need two levels? A single, relatively wide bench is much better. That way you can get to both sides of the trees easily.

BNut’s idea works, if you have to have two levels.

Here are the columns for my benches:

View attachment 319609

If you did something like this with concrete blocks, you would create benches about 24” wide. Wide benches are more stable. You can offset the trees a bit, one forward, one back so they don’t shade each other.

I used 12 foot long 4x6 posts as my surface. They won’t sag. 2 by lumber will eventually sag without a center support. You wouldn’t need a full column as a center support, just a single stack of blocks would probably be enough to prevent sagging.
But your setup is temporary. Maybe sagging doesn’t matter to you. Regardless, since it’s temporary, I wouldn’t mortar or glue anything.

WIDE is better than multi-level. When you go multi-level, your trees on the lower levels back branches will get screwed up as they are either shoved up against the support behind them or shaded out. This problem increases with the size of your trees--If you have bigger trees, you will get broken or weak back branches.

I've never added levels to any of my stands, only increased their widths--wide is better...

 

[sorce]

Of course, second levels can be used to set toolbags, accent plants, future pot choices, a beer, etc ....

You only get one chance to do it right the first time.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Of course, second levels can be used to set toolbags, accent plants, future pot choices, a beer, etc ....

You only get one chance to do it right the first time.

Sorce

but you also sacrifice overall area. The lower level still take up space further up that could be used for a wider surface...

 

[sorce]

Now we're reaching!

Sorce

 

[Trenthany]

I assume this is correct..2in x 6in x 16ft?



How are you accomplishing a 16inch surface?



You have a lot of boards!

I'm trying to see if you have extra wood..ahem...sturdy enough.... ahem...
To be able to use boards to tie your shelves together, which will work to hold design one together. Which I still like best because it offers you the most tiers. More tiers less tears!

That way, you don't have to use any adhesive, you just use what you have to make it stable.

I have been using and reusing good square drive stainless deck screws for a few years. It is a larger, but better investment.

Saw? Blades? Karate chopping?

Sorry, not much to do elsewhere!

Sorce

I plan on not cutting anything, because boards will all be same length.

I assume this is correct..2in x 6in x 16ft?



How are you accomplishing a 16inch surface?



You have a lot of boards!

I'm trying to see if you have extra wood..ahem...sturdy enough.... ahem...
To be able to use boards to tie your shelves together, which will work to hold design one together. Which I still like best because it offers you the most tiers. More tiers less tears!

That way, you don't have to use any adhesive, you just use what you have to make it stable.

I have been using and reusing good square drive stainless deck screws for a few years. It is a larger, but better investment.

Saw? Blades? Karate chopping?

Sorry, not much to do elsewhere!

Sorce

I was thinking 3 boards per shelf as they aren’t nominal so they’re 5.5” so .5” between boards will fill the area on the block easily with a small overhang. May give it 2” overhang to increase gaps and airflow under the pots as well.

I don’t have quite that much wood for free! Lmao

Will definitely use stainless hardware. Only thing I’ll buy if it’s available.

I’d still feel more comfortable if it was glued.

 

[Trenthany]

I

Geez...

You’re making this MUCH harder than it needs to be! Why do you need two levels? A single, relatively wide bench is much better. That way you can get to both sides of the trees easily.

BNut’s idea works, if you have to have two levels.

Here are the columns for my benches:

View attachment 319609

If you did something like this with concrete blocks, you would create benches about 24” wide. Wide benches are more stable. You can offset the trees a bit, one forward, one back so they don’t shade each other.

I used 12 foot long 4x6 posts as my surface. They won’t sag. 2 by lumber will eventually sag without a center support. You wouldn’t need a full column as a center support, just a single stack of blocks would probably be enough to prevent sagging.

But your setup is temporary. Maybe sagging doesn’t matter to you. Regardless, since it’s temporary, I wouldn’t mortar or glue anything.

It’s only temporary while I finalize. It will hopefully last me years. I want to build something nicer but want to use up free stuff laying around to make this one that mom will inherit when she retires. Not worried about sagging as I’ll have a couple feet off each end and three supports with approx 4’ between them. My “forever” benches will be built at work When mom ever retires! Lmao

 

[sorce]

Ok.
I get not wanting to cut, and the comfortability of glue.

If you are bolting(there's a shitty process) the boards to the blocks, the individual stacks don't need to be stable alone.

Trying to build them with a 2block foot means those 2 are prone to separate ground shifting, so number one IS the most stable design alone. It also offers the most variation and usefulness.

I gotta admit....I'm half here to argue BS that isn't true, and half here to save you money and effort.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Now we're reaching!

Sorce

No not reaching. Speaking from experience. Tried the tiered shelving thing. Lower shelves are almost always useless for any trees but shohin or mame sized and even then there were issues. Found it hard to place trees on lower shelves which are almost always too narrow to hold bonsai pots and branched bonsai. Some trees got broken weak branching. also lower shelves are more accessible to varmints in the yard.--rabbits in particular...Taller, Wider is better than tiered.

 

[leatherback]

I dont know how much cement block cost where you are, but here they are around $1.70-$2 each here.

I think I paid 8E each..

 

[Paradox]

No not reaching. Speaking from experience. Tried the tiered shelving thing. Lower shelves are almost always useless for any trees but shohin or mame sized and even then there were issues. Found it hard to place trees on lower shelves which are almost always too narrow to hold bonsai pots and branched bonsai. Some trees got broken weak branching. also lower shelves are more accessible to varmints in the yard.--rabbits in particular...Taller, Wider is better than tiered.

Did the same, had a tiered bench at one point and yes the lower one was near useless.
Also my dogs could reach the trees and they would eat my fertilizer cakes.

 

[leatherback]

Wider is better than tiered.

Slowly coming to the same realization. Unfortunately, I spent a bit of time & money building nice tired stands

 

[sorce]

No not reaching. Speaking from experience. Tried the tiered shelving thing. Lower shelves are almost always useless for any trees but shohin or mame sized and even then there were issues. Found it hard to place trees on lower shelves which are almost always too narrow to hold bonsai pots and branched bonsai. Some trees got broken weak branching. also lower shelves are more accessible to varmints in the yard.--rabbits in particular...Taller, Wider is better than tiered.

I didn't realize after you quoted my post about things that aren't trees, we would just keep talking like trees were the only thing we are considering placing there, after you just quoted what you quoted that had nothing to do with trees!

Yes I said that two and half times.
Maybe that's what it takes?

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I didn't realize after you quoted my post about things that aren't trees, we would just keep talking like trees were the only thing we are considering placing there, after you just quoted what you quoted that had nothing to do with trees!

Yes I said that two and half times.
Maybe that's what it takes?

Sorce

I stand by what I said originally then. Lower Shelves take away more useable surface area for a simple platform...If you just build a platform to the same width dimensions as a tiered shelving unit, you have more surface area on the platform. If you use some of that area down low for shelves that hold tools, beer, trees, whatever, it takes away surface area from the top of the unit...

 

[Adair M]

I stand by what I said originally then. Lower Shelves take away more useable surface area for a simple platform...If you just build a platform to the same width dimensions as a tiered shelving unit, you have more surface area on the platform. If you use some of that area down low for shelves that hold tools, beer, trees, whatever, it takes away surface area from the top of the unit...

Yes. If you have a two tier unit, the big trees have to go on the top. Which will probably be too high. If the top level is not too high, the lower shelf will be too low! Lol!!!

The solution is to make a nice, wide bench. And if you have something that needs to be elevated, put a block on the bench, and set the tree on that! Easy-peasy!

Here’s a semi-cascade I’ve elevated. And tied down:

 

[Trenthany]

@Trenthany
How many trees to you currently have? If its not a lot, there is nothing wrong with building for what you have and expanding later when you can afford to get more blocks.
The blocks and 4x4s arent a bad system because they will last a long time. Wood pallets might be free but they will rot after a while and fall apart. You could end up spending more effort having to replace them every few years.

Im by no means wealthy. I started using cheap plastic benches that I purchased from Home Depot. After a couple of years those started to get brittle because they arent made to be outside 24/7 and the plastic deteriorates in the sun. When that started to happen, they started to be a risk of breaking under the weight of my trees.
So I started replacing them with greenhouse benching, a couple each year until they were all replaced.

I dont know how much cement block cost where you are, but here they are around $1.70-$2 each here.
My cold frame (pictured in an above post) is made of cement blocks and it probably cost me around $100-$120 to build just from the blocks alone. You wont need that many blocks for a bench or two again depending on how many trees you currently have.

So far everything is free. I’ve only got 8 plants but I’m planning on adding a bunch more!

Ok.
I get not wanting to cut, and the comfortability of glue.

If you are bolting(there's a shitty process) the boards to the blocks, the individual stacks don't need to be stable alone.

Trying to build them with a 2block foot means those 2 are prone to separate ground shifting, so number one IS the most stable design alone. It also offers the most variation and usefulness.

I gotta admit....I'm half here to argue BS that isn't true, and half here to save you money and effort.

Sorce

Well thank you everyone for your efforts! Been running all day but I’ll be looking into putting up my design hopefully tomorrow afternoon. No guarantees on photos but hopefully! Do I need 16’ right now? Heck no! Do I want it? Of course! Since I’ve got the materials I’m going for it.

I’m even planning in my head some automatic watering with zones for thirsty plants and zones for drier plants preferably with inline fertilization possibly also on a timer! Maybe DIY maybe I’ll just buy something but I’m thinking it’s the way to go for consistent minimum food and water for trees. I’ll supplement the minimum with hand watering and fertilizing.It will take some work but should be worth it in the end! By the time I’m done I’m going to have Jed Clampett’s version of some of the ones in the thread shared earlier!

I’m going to be having a staff member trenching for me while I am at work to put in water and electric at the bed and the new shed so fingers crossed I can get it all run and put together benches. I’ll get it hooked up with water before I move trees regardless because the nearest water is 120 feet away on the other side of a building from where new gardening area is. Gotta get the well pump replaced and pipes run but I’m excited! That’s gonna be a hit to my budget but I got a guy thankfully. I may plumb my pond over to a holding tank near it when I get it fixed to provide waste water prefilter as extra fertilizer. Got a few ideas on using a transfer pump and a float valve to add pond water to fertilizer injection reservoir for feeding so that I’ll have extra fertilizer to save money.

Anyone every use a pond bog area for growing out cypress? Seems ready made! circulating water gets nutrients pulled out for tree clean water for fish. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol. Ok I am but bonsai soil is already almost aquaponic soil and some is exactly that. I think if I built a big enough bog area I could populate it with little sunken cypress to promote buttressing while keeping their roots at size in a pot. I’d just put mesh circles to keep those areas clear for bonsai pots and let the rest be used for ornamental or crop plants if I want to push the aquaponics aspect. Again maybe I’m crazy and this is a terrible idea! If it seems like a decent idea I’ll look into how I can set it up. Maybe one of the flushing zones that fills and drains on a cycle for some plants and a straight flowing filter zone for the cypress. I’ll have to start a thread if it seems like people think it’s a good idea.

 

[Adair M]

So far everything is free. I’ve only got 8 plants but I’m planning on adding a bunch more!

Well thank you everyone for your efforts! Been running all day but I’ll be looking into putting up my design hopefully tomorrow afternoon. No guarantees on photos but hopefully! Do I need 16’ right now? Heck no! Do I want it? Of course! Since I’ve got the materials I’m going for it.

I’m even planning in my head some automatic watering with zones for thirsty plants and zones for drier plants preferably with inline fertilization possibly also on a timer! Maybe DIY maybe I’ll just buy something but I’m thinking it’s the way to go for consistent minimum food and water for trees. I’ll supplement the minimum with hand watering and fertilizing.It will take some work but should be worth it in the end! By the time I’m done I’m going to have Jed Clampett’s version of some of the ones in the thread shared earlier!

I’m going to be having a staff member trenching for me while I am at work to put in water and electric at the bed and the new shed so fingers crossed I can get it all run and put together benches. I’ll get it hooked up with water before I move trees regardless because the nearest water is 120 feet away on the other side of a building from where new gardening area is. Gotta get the well pump replaced and pipes run but I’m excited! That’s gonna be a hit to my budget but I got a guy thankfully. I may plumb my pond over to a holding tank near it when I get it fixed to provide waste water prefilter as extra fertilizer. Got a few ideas on using a transfer pump and a float valve to add pond water to fertilizer injection reservoir for feeding so that I’ll have extra fertilizer to save money.

Anyone every use a pond bog area for growing out cypress? Seems ready made! circulating water gets nutrients pulled out for tree clean water for fish. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol. Ok I am but bonsai soil is already almost aquaponic soil and some is exactly that. I think if I built a big enough bog area I could populate it with little sunken cypress to promote buttressing while keeping their roots at size in a pot. I’d just put mesh circles to keep those areas clear for bonsai pots and let the rest be used for ornamental or crop plants if I want to push the aquaponics aspect. Again maybe I’m crazy and this is a terrible idea! If it seems like a decent idea I’ll look into how I can set it up. Maybe one of the flushing zones that fills and drains on a cycle for some plants and a straight flowing filter zone for the cypress. I’ll have to start a thread if it seems like people think it’s a good idea.

I have a Bald Cypress in a bonsai pot sitting in the bog area of my koi pond. It’s growing like crazy!

 

[Trenthany]

I have a Bald Cypress in a bonsai pot sitting in the bog area of my koi pond. It’s growing like crazy!

Do you have a thread? Is is worth a thread at this point? I’m not there on developing my pond. Focusing on other aspects of the yard at the moment. Pond is probably a next year or two project. Do you know if others are doing anything with aquaponics and their trees? Perhaps this could be a secret to ultra fast development? Perhaps combined with led growlighting you could do fully indoor bonsai? Lol

 

[Adair M]

Do you have a thread? Is is worth a thread at this point? I’m not there on developing my pond. Focusing on other aspects of the yard at the moment. Pond is probably a next year or two project. Do you know if others are doing anything with aquaponics and their trees? Perhaps this could be a secret to ultra fast development? Perhaps combined with led growlighting you could do fully indoor bonsai? Lol

This thread:

New bonsai garden, including koi pond!

As promised, I thought I’d share a bit about my new bonsai garden. I have a full sun space, absolutely no overhead trees. Which is great for my pines! As a temporary measure, I put up these shelves: But, I need a patio, more work space, and I have the room to make a nice display garden...

www.bonsainut.com

I have no desire to do indoor bonsai.

I put a bald cypress in the pond solely for pond decor, not as “bonsai”.

 

[leatherback]

I’m thinking it’s the way to go for consistent minimum food and water for trees. I’ll supplement the minimum with hand watering and fertilizing.

I would recommend going for handwatering, and only use the irrigation as backup for trips etc.
Watering will mean seeing each tree every day and spotting trouble when it starts. If you do not have to water, you have a real risk of ignoring the trees for a bit when busy.

 

[rockm]

So far everything is free. I’ve only got 8 plants but I’m planning on adding a bunch more!

Well thank you everyone for your efforts! Been running all day but I’ll be looking into putting up my design hopefully tomorrow afternoon. No guarantees on photos but hopefully! Do I need 16’ right now? Heck no! Do I want it? Of course! Since I’ve got the materials I’m going for it.

I’m even planning in my head some automatic watering with zones for thirsty plants and zones for drier plants preferably with inline fertilization possibly also on a timer! Maybe DIY maybe I’ll just buy something but I’m thinking it’s the way to go for consistent minimum food and water for trees. I’ll supplement the minimum with hand watering and fertilizing.It will take some work but should be worth it in the end! By the time I’m done I’m going to have Jed Clampett’s version of some of the ones in the thread shared earlier!

I’m going to be having a staff member trenching for me while I am at work to put in water and electric at the bed and the new shed so fingers crossed I can get it all run and put together benches. I’ll get it hooked up with water before I move trees regardless because the nearest water is 120 feet away on the other side of a building from where new gardening area is. Gotta get the well pump replaced and pipes run but I’m excited! That’s gonna be a hit to my budget but I got a guy thankfully. I may plumb my pond over to a holding tank near it when I get it fixed to provide waste water prefilter as extra fertilizer. Got a few ideas on using a transfer pump and a float valve to add pond water to fertilizer injection reservoir for feeding so that I’ll have extra fertilizer to save money.

Anyone every use a pond bog area for growing out cypress? Seems ready made! circulating water gets nutrients pulled out for tree clean water for fish. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol. Ok I am but bonsai soil is already almost aquaponic soil and some is exactly that. I think if I built a big enough bog area I could populate it with little sunken cypress to promote buttressing while keeping their roots at size in a pot. I’d just put mesh circles to keep those areas clear for bonsai pots and let the rest be used for ornamental or crop plants if I want to push the aquaponics aspect. Again maybe I’m crazy and this is a terrible idea! If it seems like a decent idea I’ll look into how I can set it up. Maybe one of the flushing zones that fills and drains on a cycle for some plants and a straight flowing filter zone for the cypress. I’ll have to start a thread if it seems like people think it’s a good idea.

Automatic watering for beginners is a way to not learn how to water properly. It's convenient, BUT it can also kill your trees if you're not familiar with their day-in-day-out needs. Those change during the growing season. The "Set and forget" watering system won't compensate, you'll get overwatering and underwatering, possibly at the severe detriment to your trees.

hand watering is the most reliable way to do this starting out. You won' be tempted to let things go. After 25 years, I hand water my trees every day. Takes about 10-15 minutes twice a day. Gives me a chance to see how things are doing as well and find problems. It's also relaxing-isn't that part of what attracted you to bonsai is after all? Bonsai don't require intensive daily care. It's a process of doing 100 small things every week over time...