Trident with Very Straight Trunk - Help!

[SandSquid]

Yes. Spring, late spring, after first growth hardens. Some might identify it as early summer.
I have chopped with excellent success in early summer after the first flush of growth hardens off. I’ve preferred late spring to early summer after the leaf hardening because I want to know the tree returned from winter well and is healthy for chopping.

Talk the chop and root pruning through with a few members. You mentioned a nearby bonsai club and I’m sure they would welcome you to attend a meeting at any time to explore their agendas…and they will offer good local timing advice. You have plenty of time until the spring summer season of 2024…. @roberthu has the right direction from my experience. @BobbyLane might have a climate similar to yours for advice. And I’m sure there are a few Seattle and surrounding area members here for discussion.

There are a few pathways when you do the trunk chopping.
Example: 1- When chopping low don’t touch the roots other than making sure the top exposed roots are buried; 2- When chopping low lift the tree out for some circling-the-pot root pruning and fully cover the roots; 3- When chopping low drastically prune the roots back and fully cover the roots. And you may know all about this from other trees you have.

I’ve used all three versions. I have good results with all of them. Others here may also add a fourth, fifth or more versions that work. I’ve only mentioned what I have personally used on trees. I have my best results when I chop in the earliest part of summer, which is actually late spring, when the first growth of the years hardens off and I see a healthy tree.

The root pruning can be treated a lot like what you would do if you were collecting this tree from the ground. I’m confident there are members here who regularly root prune in instances like you have…and on trees exactly like yours. Listen to how they prune and then establish the direction you want to take. Almost all of my root prunes like this have been quite drastic with a removal of about 2/3 to 3/4 of the roots. Some trees I’ve probably cut off almost all the roots except for any hair like roots nearest the trunk. You have an interesting situation with those roots you’ve left exposed. You will know more when you remove the soil. I have had American Elms with high roots like yours and once I removed the soil I could see better roots hidden below then I’ve cut those high roots off in favor of better roots below ground. A lot depends on what is below ground.

I always seal chops above ground. I do not seal roots below ground….I do use a good draining substrate so roots don’t turn into a mush mess.

Regarding the above ground root burying…I would do that now before winter….I’m sure you can figure out a way to do that. Okay….I’ve probably rambled on enough….to much really.

I really appreciate the thorough reply, outlining each option. This is the first tree I've delved this deep into developing, so I'm very grateful for the clarification!

I think I'm going to remove the tree from the Anderson flat it's in at the moment and put it into a five-gallon grow bag, that way I can get the roots good and buried while waiting for spring to do the ground layer portion of the project. I may do the same with my JM while I'm at it - burying the roots, not the ground layer. (this will also free up two Anderson flats I'll hopefully need for my yamadori hunt next month).

The chop won't be until early summer 2025, but the tree should be all ready by then.

Thanks again!

 

[SandSquid]

I am! Though you can actually come to the meeting and sign up there in person if you enjoy it. They have two fantastic artists on tap for meetings and workshops coming up in the next few months too.

I'll do my best to be there on the 25th, would be cool to check it out and join on site. Thanks!

 

[dbonsaiw]

Just wanted to add that there's nothing wrong with a straight trunk, so long as the taper is nice. I like having some more natural looking trees in development along with the "S" shapes. If this were mine, I would layer it as far down as I could to get nebari growing nicely. And then chop to where others had the red line the following year and start growing a new leader. Even on a "straight" trunk, the act of chopping and growing a new leader will give movement (and taper of course).

 

[SandSquid]

Just wanted to add that there's nothing wrong with a straight trunk, so long as the taper is nice. I like having some more natural looking trees in development along with the "S" shapes. If this were mine, I would layer it as far down as I could to get nebari growing nicely. And then chop to where others had the red line the following year and start growing a new leader. Even on a "straight" trunk, the act of chopping and growing a new leader will give movement (and taper of course).

Yep, that's the plan. Ground layer to get roots up higher, removing the bark at an angle to change the angle of the tree a tad, then chopping the next year.

Now, I've seen a couple things mentioned online about using a board or tile or something beneath the roots, fanning the roots over the board or tile, and that this will help with basal flaring. Does this really work? Is there more to it than that?

 

[dbonsaiw]

Now, I've seen a couple things mentioned online about using a board or tile or something beneath the roots, fanning the roots over the board or tile, and that this will help with basal flaring. Does this really work? Is there more to it than that?

It definitely works to prevent the roots from growing downwards, but not absolutely needed. If you cut back the roots hard at each repot you basically accomplish the same thing. Of course, you can full on Ebihara and use nails and the like to keep your roots sorted over the board and also to cut off the roots as they grow causing more ramification. I have had good results with just a board.

 

[Tieball]

It definitely works to prevent the roots from growing downwards, but not absolutely needed. If you cut back the roots hard at each repot you basically accomplish the same thing. Of course, you can full on Ebihara and use nails and the like to keep your roots sorted over the board and also to cut off the roots as they grow causing more ramification. I have had good results with just a board.

I grow out trees in wooden boxes so the box itself is more rectangular like a bonsai pot. The boxes I use are not very deep (like a plastic pot or grow bag would be) so no need for a board or tile. The bottom of the box is the board/tile. And I never fill the box with substrate to the rim. The trees are almost always sitting right on the bottom and the roots are all buried. The root pads tend to become and remain flat. just the way i grow. I know there are many other methods.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I grow out trees in wooden boxes so the box itself is more rectangular like a bonsai pot. The boxes I use are not very deep (like a plastic pot or grow bag would be) so no need for a board or tile. The bottom of the box is the board/tile. And I never fill the box with substrate to the rim. The trees are almost always sitting right on the bottom and the roots are all buried. The root pads tend to become and remain flat. just the way i grow. I know there are many other methods.

Personally, all my grow boxes are 14X14X5 on the inside. By using the bottom of the box as the "tile", one looses a lot of the benefits of the grow box, namely space for roots to grow. If the roots aren't being given room to run, why use a grow box at all (may as well stick it in a bonsai pot)? The purpose of the tile is to keep the nebari radial, not to confine the roots. Once the first couple inches of the nebari are kept radial (that's the part over the tile), the ends of the roots should have space to grow, including downwards. In early spring I remove the tree from the box for a repot - the roots basically get cut back to the tile and the tree is replanted.

 

[leus]

1) In order to keep the tree alive there needs to be some existing growth beneath it. An air layer will drain energy, but not be able to give it back since the cambium is removed.

I don’t think this is true.

 

[SandSquid]

Personally, all my grow boxes are 14X14X5 on the inside. By using the bottom of the box as the "tile", one looses a lot of the benefits of the grow box, namely space for roots to grow. If the roots aren't being given room to run, why use a grow box at all (may as well stick it in a bonsai pot)? The purpose of the tile is to keep the nebari radial, not to confine the roots. Once the first couple inches of the nebari are kept radial (that's the part over the tile), the ends of the roots should have space to grow, including downwards. In early spring I remove the tree from the box for a repot - the roots basically get cut back to the tile and the tree is replanted.

This is exactly what I had in mind to do. The grow bag is deep enough to allow the roots to run out and grow down after they extend beyond whatever flat surface I decide to use. I have a few small bathroom wall tiles, 6"x6" I think, and one of those should be perfect.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I don’t think this is true.

For deciduous trees, this isn't really true and they can be chopped back to no branches (unlike conifers). The issue I've had is that the shoots that follow aren't predictable. A trident maple or Chinese elm may simply explode with new shoots all around the cut, allowing one to choose the preferred leader. A Japanese maple, on the other hand, can be more finicky and die back further than wanted. Assuming it's healthy, the trident should be fine with a blind chop.

 

[Shibui]

Now, I've seen a couple things mentioned online about using a board or tile or something beneath the roots, fanning the roots over the board or tile, and that this will help with basal flaring. Does this really work? Is there more to it than that?

Planting above a board or tile can prevent some roots growing down but there's a little more to it than that.
Layers tend to produce mostly lateral roots that continue to grow out and rarely down. Planting a new layer on a board will produce a flat root system but the same tree without the board will also do the same.
Roots thicken as the trunk and branches above. Any roots that are bent of folded under the trunk or under other roots will also thicken and lift the tree off the board which can ruin the entire root system.
Use the board if you like but back that up with occasional root pruning to get best results.

Having lateral roots and few down roots definitely helps with basal flare.

 

[SandSquid]

Planting above a board or tile can prevent some roots growing down but there's a little more to it than that.
Layers tend to produce mostly lateral roots that continue to grow out and rarely down. Planting a new layer on a board will produce a flat root system but the same tree without the board will also do the same.
Roots thicken as the trunk and branches above. Any roots that are bent of folded under the trunk or under other roots will also thicken and lift the tree off the board which can ruin the entire root system.
Use the board if you like but back that up with occasional root pruning to get best results.

Having lateral roots and few down roots definitely helps with basal flare.

Makes total sense. Sounds like something to take care of on a, say, annual basis as the tree grows. Every spring, just remove those roots that want to lift the tree off the board or tile and repot. Regular maintenance.

 

[Paradox]

Agree with the ground layer then chop later after you get roots and vigor back.

The current base is bad and will not make a good bonsai. Simply burying it will give you other problems with fitting it into a future bonsai pot. If you can pull it off, doing the ground layer and chop will give this tree much more potential.

See this as a learning tree and learning opportunity for you.

 

[SandSquid]

Agree with the ground layer then chop later after you get roots and vigor back.

The current base is bad and will not make a good bonsai. Simply burying it will give you other problems with fitting it into a future bonsai pot. If you can pull it off, doing the ground layer and chop will give this tree much more potential.

See this as a learning tree and learning opportunity for you.

I think in ten years I’m gonna look back on this $20 tree and see what an amazing transformation it’s had. All the learning it’s going to provide in the name of bonsai will be a testament to its greatness. I hope to turn my bad choice of tree into something worthy… unless I kill it in the process.

 

[dbonsaiw]

The current base is bad and will not make a good bonsai.

I agree with its statement, but also got me thinking about how much a base like this could be fixed through grafting. I think an airlayer is the best way for this tree, but query if a bunch of roots could be grafted radially and then the rest of the roots just chopped? This is more of a thought experiment.

 

[Paradox]

I agree with its statement, but also got me thinking about how much a base like this could be fixed through grafting. I think an airlayer is the best way for this tree, but query if a bunch of roots could be grafted radially and then the rest of the roots just chopped? This is more of a thought experiment.

You could approach graft above the spot where they separate. But I think that would take longer to try and get roots all around the base plus it does create more scars. I think better results will happen with the ground layer.

 

[BobbyLane]

Seems like there's a couple of multitrunks in there with air layering higher up. Is it possible to take some better images of the top from a few angles? Its good practice to explore all options when making decisions.
There is a lot of established growth up top to power the roots on a layer, you'd probably get roots pretty quickly and have something ok to look at and work on in a much shorter time frame. The low branches would make great sub trunks and help to fatten up the base.

 

[SandSquid]

Seems like there's a couple of multitrunks in there with air layering higher up. Is it possible to take some better images of the top from a few angles? Its good practice to explore all options when making decisions.
There is a lot of established growth up top to power the roots on a layer, you'd probably get roots pretty quickly and have something ok to look at and work on in a much shorter time frame. The low branches would make great sub trunks and help to fatten up the base.

Are you suggesting that I air layer where the red line is? Also, that it would produce faster than ground layering?

 

[dbonsaiw]

Are you suggesting that I air layer where the red line is? Also, that it would produce faster than ground layering?

The only difference between a regular layer and a ground layer is where the girdle is cut. I think Bobby's suggestion was to layer higher up so that what you end up with is the beginnings of a double trunk, as opposed to lower down where you will just have a stump.

 

[SandSquid]

The only difference between a regular layer and a ground layer is where the girdle is cut. I think Bobby's suggestion was to layer higher up so that what you end up with is the beginnings of a double trunk, as opposed to lower down where you will just have a stump.

just when I think I have my mind made up, someone else comes along and makes another suggestion that makes total sense