Trident with Very Straight Trunk - Help!

[SandSquid]

I think this is what I would do if it were mine. Great suggestion. You can always layer later on after the grafts are set.

The problem is, I have no idea what this means…

 

[SandSquid]

I'm glad someone mentioned this.

@SandSquid when looking at your material, always start at the bottom and go up. Your biggest issue is not the straight trunk, but the bad roots that are really not fixable. In Seattle you should be able to find trident maple material pretty easily, so I would start with trying to fix the bottom of the tree first, versus trying to air-layer modest material off the top (which you could buy for cheap). Consider a ground layer at an angle while you still have a strong upper trunk to force the layer. Plus, since you can cut the air-layer girdle and then surround the layer with dirt, ground layers are sometimes a little easier to get to take.

View attachment 509244

Ground layer step 1... and wait for nice roots to explode. Then trunk chop at step 2... and away you go!

Nothing ventured nothing gained! And bonsai is all about time - getting the most progress in the least time. Don't screw around with your upper trunk when you REALLY want your big chunky base with a great nebari. And of course, the nice little secret - if you do a ground layer at a 45 degree angle, suddenly the base of your trunk becomes 1.4141x thicker. Or at least that's what math says

Okay. I watched some videos on ground layering and there seems to be a few different methods. Are you suggesting that I strip away the bark and cambium all around the trunk from line #1down to the soil level? Then bury that whole stripped section?

if so, that doesn’t really change my overall “plan,“ just adds another step, which is to prep for ground layering before burying the roots. I can do this is a 5 gallon grow bag, which would give it a deeper soil if that would help.

Also, would ground layering be an early spring activity? Or would autumn work as the girdle would be buried for what I’m assuming would be an extra year or so?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

The problem is, I have no idea what this means…

Step 1: decide where you'd like low branches to be and thread / approach graft those branches. If you do not know what grafting is, check out the appropriate threads on this forum.

Step 2: wait for grafts to fuse.

Step 3: Air layer the top off and chop to the succesful grafts lower on the tree.

Overall, this is a 5 or 6yr process and youll end up with 2 good trees instead of 1 good tree.

 

[roberthu]

I don't know if you watch Peppa Pig or not but I am going to say "Chop the tree down!"

 

[SandSquid]

I don't know if you watch Peppa Pig or not but I am going to say "Chop the tree down!"

Well there WILL be a chop…. Just trying to get a good idea on WHEN

And I’ve heard of that pig, but my kids are all over 20 so…. Im sure she’s a gem lol

 

[Shibui]

Okay. I watched some videos on ground layering and there seems to be a few different methods. Are you suggesting that I strip away the bark and cambium all around the trunk from line #1down to the soil level? Then bury that whole stripped section?

Ground layer is the same as air layer but down low so instead of sphagnum and plastic wrap we just bury the debarked section.
Generally for layers we just peel a strip of bark around the same width as the trunk diameter. Narrower is OK but can sometimes heal over without roots. Wider is also Ok but not necessary. Narrow with a wire torniquet is another option that seems to work well.
Roots will always grow from the top of the stripped section (which is why width doesn't matter) so it is imperative that the top cut is buried (in soil or sphagnum) deep enough to stay uniformly damp for roots to grow.

 

[SandSquid]

Ground layer is the same as air layer but down low so instead of sphagnum and plastic wrap we just bury the debarked section.
Generally for layers we just peel a strip of bark around the same width as the trunk diameter. Narrower is OK but can sometimes heal over without roots. Wider is also Ok but not necessary. Narrow with a wire torniquet is another option that seems to work well.
Roots will always grow from the top of the stripped section (which is why width doesn't matter) so it is imperative that the top cut is buried (in soil or sphagnum) deep enough to stay uniformly damp for roots to grow.

Got it. There’s also debate on what time of year to do this. Should I wait until spring?

 

[Dav4]

Got it. There’s also debate on what time of year to do this. Should I wait until spring?

Yup

 

[SandSquid]

Yup

Got it.

So, my plan is as follows:

1 - Stay patient and try not to think about it until spring - find something else to do.
2 - Prep tree for ground layering
3 - In spring 2025 perform root work
4 - chop trunk ~5" above the soil line

I appreciate everyone's feedback and suggestions. I love this tree, and I feel confident going forward.

Thanks everyone!

 

[BobbyLane]

Got it.

So, my plan is as follows:

1 - Stay patient and try not to think about it until spring - find something else to do.
2 - Prep tree for ground layering
3 - In spring 2025 perform root work
4 - chop trunk ~5" above the soil line

I appreciate everyone's feedback and suggestions. I love this tree, and I feel confident going forward.

Thanks everyone!

Lets hope thats not youre only tree, otherwise we probably wont see you again
I would suggest buying some more material to work on through the winter months. Many newbies jump on the forum and enthusiasm is high, they want to work on trees, they dont have much trees and what they have, they're told to do nothing on until spring. Most dont return.

 

[SandSquid]

Lets hope thats not youre only tree, otherwise we probably wont see you again
I would suggest buying some more material to work on through the winter months. Many newbies jump on the forum and enthusiasm is high, they want to work on trees, they dont have much trees and what they have, they're told to do nothing on until spring. Most dont return.

Nope, that's not me, though I appreciate the concern I have a copper beech that was a rescue I've been working on just getting healthy, it's coming along nicely and I should be ready to do some pruning and structure work coming up soon. I've got a Seiju Chinese Elm waiting for me to get enough guts to work on. A few other things growing, like a decent sized Mikawa JM that I'm going to try my hand at air layering come spring (right now I have it in an Anderson flat letting it fatten up a bit - but it's got great movement and a ton of potential). As far as something to really work on, I do have three Nana junipers I'm wanting to do something with (they're still in their nursery pots - two 5" and one 6" so they're not super small but not huge either). I styled a few over the summer, one being a cascade experiment, so I have those to take care of along with a couple of small cryptomeria - the recently styled junipers and the cryptomeria are all in my greenhouse and thriving. I have a dwarf (pusch) Norway Spruce I've been letting grow a bit until I get the guts to do something with (I'm always skittish about messing up) but I really want to get in and style that one, I'm super excited about its cones and I see a really cool line I want to bring out. And a couple of other odds and ends. So I have things to do... I'm planning a yamadori hunt mid-October also, so I'm getting all the things together that I need for that (more Anderson flats, permits, root slayer trowel and shovel, various other tools, etc.).

This has grown from just an interest into something that has gotten ahold of me in a way that only playing the guitar and riding motorcycles has.... which is to say it's here to stay.

 

[SandSquid]

I've just never had experience dealing with the tree in question.... I was pretty lost on it and it was one of the first trees I bought and didn't know what to really look for, but I was given some really good direction on this forum and now I have a plan. Everything else I've done has been beginner stuff. I've never had to split trunks or graft or ground layer or any of that. It's all been nursery stock to cut on and practice and then buying things to work on in the future after I've learned a few things.

 

[caffeinated]

I've just never had experience dealing with the tree in question.... I was pretty lost on it and it was one of the first trees I bought and didn't know what to really look for, but I was given some really good direction on this forum and now I have a plan. Everything else I've done has been beginner stuff. I've never had to split trunks or graft or ground layer or any of that. It's all been nursery stock to cut on and practice and then buying things to work on in the future after I've learned a few things.

the Puget Sound Bonsai Association is having one of their Bring Your Own Tree general meetings a week from today. Monday the 25th, in northeast Seattle at the Center for Urban Horticulture. You don't necessarily need to bring your tree along, but there will be a lot of people to talk to and trees to look at that folks are figuring out how to style. Might be a good one to check out. https://www.pugetsoundbonsai.com/calendar

 

[SandSquid]

the Puget Sound Bonsai Association is having one of their Bring Your Own Tree general meetings a week from today. Monday the 25th, in northeast Seattle at the Center for Urban Horticulture. You don't necessarily need to bring your tree along, but there will be a lot of people to talk to and trees to look at that folks are figuring out how to style. Might be a good one to check out. https://www.pugetsoundbonsai.com/calendar

I've been contemplating joining a club or association, and I've looked at this one in particular quite a few times. I'm thinking it's time to quit procrastinating and join!

Are you a member?

 

[Scrogdor]

Lets hope thats not youre only tree, otherwise we probably wont see you again
I would suggest buying some more material to work on through the winter months. Many newbies jump on the forum and enthusiasm is high, they want to work on trees, they dont have much trees and what they have, they're told to do nothing on until spring. Most dont return.

Then you get hit with the bonsai flurry phase where you can't stop buying trees until you have no more space.

 

[SandSquid]

Then you get hit with the bonsai flurry phase where you can't stop buying trees until you have no more space.

Which is exactly what has happened!!

I need to figure out outdoor shelving…. So there’s another “bonsai” project.

 

[roberthu]

Well there WILL be a chop…. Just trying to get a good idea on WHEN

And I’ve heard of that pig, but my kids are all over 20 so…. Im sure she’s a gem lol

Spring after the first push hardens off. Clean the wound well and putty seal it. Tridents heal well f the tree is healthy.

 

[caffeinated]

I've been contemplating joining a club or association, and I've looked at this one in particular quite a few times. I'm thinking it's time to quit procrastinating and join!

Are you a member?

I am! Though you can actually come to the meeting and sign up there in person if you enjoy it. They have two fantastic artists on tap for meetings and workshops coming up in the next few months too.

 

[Tieball]

A few of you have mentioned burying the roots well, I hadn’t thought of that and I should have, I’ll do that for sure ASAP!

im not too interested in air layering this tree. I have a JM I’m going to try my luck with for air layering.

this tree needs a chop, and I appreciate everyone talking me through this. I was initially leaning toward keeping as much of the foliage as possible while removing a good chunk of the upper tree. However, I AM willing to put the time and effort into this tree, and your illustration of where to chop along with other folks’ confidence that it will bud (or should, anyway) even making a drastic chop so low, makes total sense.

so, here’s my plan.

1. bury the roots!
2. chop at the location marked in the photo
3. keep it in the large pot it’s in right now, or an even larger one for the to few years

theres still some decisions to be made as to when to chop…. But sounds like I should wait until spring and do the chop and root prune at the same time. Sound about right?

thank you all again!

Yes. Spring, late spring, after first growth hardens. Some might identify it as early summer.
I have chopped with excellent success in early summer after the first flush of growth hardens off. I’ve preferred late spring to early summer after the leaf hardening because I want to know the tree returned from winter well and is healthy for chopping.

Talk the chop and root pruning through with a few members. You mentioned a nearby bonsai club and I’m sure they would welcome you to attend a meeting at any time to explore their agendas…and they will offer good local timing advice. You have plenty of time until the spring summer season of 2024…. @roberthu has the right direction from my experience. @BobbyLane might have a climate similar to yours for advice. And I’m sure there are a few Seattle and surrounding area members here for discussion.

There are a few pathways when you do the trunk chopping.
Example: 1- When chopping low don’t touch the roots other than making sure the top exposed roots are buried; 2- When chopping low lift the tree out for some circling-the-pot root pruning and fully cover the roots; 3- When chopping low drastically prune the roots back and fully cover the roots. And you may know all about this from other trees you have.

I’ve used all three versions. I have good results with all of them. Others here may also add a fourth, fifth or more versions that work. I’ve only mentioned what I have personally used on trees. I have my best results when I chop in the earliest part of summer, which is actually late spring, when the first growth of the years hardens off and I see a healthy tree.

The root pruning can be treated a lot like what you would do if you were collecting this tree from the ground. I’m confident there are members here who regularly root prune in instances like you have…and on trees exactly like yours. Listen to how they prune and then establish the direction you want to take. Almost all of my root prunes like this have been quite drastic with a removal of about 2/3 to 3/4 of the roots. Some trees I’ve probably cut off almost all the roots except for any hair like roots nearest the trunk. You have an interesting situation with those roots you’ve left exposed. You will know more when you remove the soil. I have had American Elms with high roots like yours and once I removed the soil I could see better roots hidden below then I’ve cut those high roots off in favor of better roots below ground. A lot depends on what is below ground.

I always seal chops above ground. I do not seal roots below ground….I do use a good draining substrate so roots don’t turn into a mush mess.

Regarding the above ground root burying…I would do that now before winter….I’m sure you can figure out a way to do that. Okay….I’ve probably rambled on enough….to much really.

Spring after the first push hardens off. Clean the wound well and putty seal it. Tridents heal well f the tree is healthy.

 

[jradics]

A few of you have mentioned burying the roots well, I hadn’t thought of that and I should have, I’ll do that for sure ASAP!

im not too interested in air layering this tree. I have a JM I’m going to try my luck with for air layering.

this tree needs a chop, and I appreciate everyone talking me through this. I was initially leaning toward keeping as much of the foliage as possible while removing a good chunk of the upper tree. However, I AM willing to put the time and effort into this tree, and your illustration of where to chop along with other folks’ confidence that it will bud (or should, anyway) even making a drastic chop so low, makes total sense.

so, here’s my plan.

1. bury the roots!
2. chop at the location marked in the photo
3. keep it in the large pot it’s in right now, or an even larger one for the to few years

theres still some decisions to be made as to when to chop…. But sounds like I should wait until spring and do the chop and root prune at the same time. Sound about right?

thank you all again!

try to layer the top off. if it fails, you can still do the big chop. you have nothing to lose but some time.