Trident with Very Straight Trunk - Help!

[SandSquid]

Looking for a bit of help and guidance. Suggestions. Good-to-knows. Anything that’ll help. I’m fairly new to bonsai, and I’ve had this guy for a little bit, a trident maple. The trunk is about 2” wide at the base before it tapers ever so slightly up. This trunk is very straight and forks into three, two of which pretty much parallel one another. I gave it a good trim a couple days ago to somewhat conical shape, and I’ve been staring at it since then trying to figure out what to do. I’ve watched videos and read blogs and forums, but I’m getting nothing. So, figured I’d open a discussion about it with you fine folks and see what you think. For reference the tree stands 24” tall with a 16” spread. See pics….. I welcome any and all suggestions. Seriously, bring it on.

 

[TrevorLarsen]

I would air layer it like 4 or 5 inches up and then have 2 trees, but wait until next spring to do it.

 

[Ininaatigoons]

2"=20 10:1 but that is a minimum ratio for trunk diameter:height ratio. 5:1 let's say is 10" tall finished tree. You make the trunk chop at 4-6" and you let grow again. Training one of the lowest branches and go from there.

 

[SandSquid]

2"=20 10:1 but that is a minimum ratio for trunk diameter:height ratio. 5:1 let's say is 10" tall finished tree. You make the trunk chop at 4-6" and you let grow again. Training one of the lowest branches and go from there.

Make the chop 4”-6” from the top or from the bottom? From the bottom there are no branches (and I’m not sure I see buds) that low…

EDIT: I take that back, there is some activity that low.

 

[SandSquid]

It sounds like between the two suggestions so far, air layer in the spring at about five inches up, which would give me two trees plus the
chop that was suggested. This is where my noob-ness really shows because I have an initial resistance to cutting of the foliage all in one chop

 

[Ininaatigoons]

1) In order to keep the tree alive there needs to be some existing growth beneath it. An air layer will drain energy, but not be able to give it back since the cambium is removed. It's fine to do an air layer one year, separate and do the chop the following year. Now 2 trees, but added year.
2) In most species Trident Maple included, dormant buds may not be visible. Once you chop many buds appear.
3) There is nothing wrong with a straight trunk. There are many straight trucks in nature.

 

[SandSquid]

1) In order to keep the tree alive there needs to be some existing growth beneath it. An air layer will drain energy, but not be able to give it back since the cambium is removed. It's fine to do an air layer one year, separate and do the chop the following year. Now 2 trees, but added year.
2) In most species Trident Maple included, dormant buds may not be visible. Once you chop many buds appear.
3) There is nothing wrong with a straight trunk. There are many straight trucks in nature.

Okay, with #3 in mind I could remove the main trunk just above where it splits into 2 and use the weaker of the two remaining branches as the new leader. That would shrink the tree to about half. If I wanted to add at least a little movement to the trunk, would a trunk-split be appropriate for this type of tree, and if so, when? Spring? At the same time I would chop the top half of the trunk? I realize this tree is a many-year project and the whole breaking-eggs-for-omelets thing is very real.

 

[Shibui]

A straight out chop low down leaving only bare trunk will usually be OK for trident maple as they are really good at activating dormant buds but occasionally no buds emerge. I'm sure you would be disappointed with failure.
Safer option is to chop at an angle just above either of the lower branches. Also chop the branch back to just a few buds. That way you can be confident it will stay alive. The chop should activate some more buds on trunk which might end up as lower branches or, when they strengthen you can chop lower and regrow the trunk and branches lower. Takes a year or 2 longer but safer.
Unlikely to see many lower buds while the top is still growing strong and drawing resources and sending auxins back down.

I don't usually suggest layering tridents as they are cheap and easy to get but the root base on this one does not look very attractive so layering might be a way to kill 2 birds - shorten the trunk and replace the nebari with much better root system.

If you want a trident with some trunk movement why have you selected such a straight trunk to start out with. Surely it would be more sensible to start with a trunk that has at least some of the features you want.

 

[BobbyLane]

I just split this tree into 3 with air layering, two layers rooted well and now flank the mother tree as a clump. There's a recent thread. It's one way to improve mediocre material.

 

[SandSquid]

A straight out chop low down leaving only bare trunk will usually be OK for trident maple as they are really good at activating dormant buds but occasionally no buds emerge. I'm sure you would be disappointed with failure.
Safer option is to chop at an angle just above either of the lower branches. Also chop the branch back to just a few buds. That way you can be confident it will stay alive. The chop should activate some more buds on trunk which might end up as lower branches or, when they strengthen you can chop lower and regrow the trunk and branches lower. Takes a year or 2 longer but safer.
Unlikely to see many lower buds while the top is still growing strong and drawing resources and sending auxins back down.

I don't usually suggest layering tridents as they are cheap and easy to get but the root base on this one does not look very attractive so layering might be a way to kill 2 birds - shorten the trunk and replace the nebari with much better root system.

If you want a trident with some trunk movement why have you selected such a straight trunk to start out with. Surely it would be more sensible to start with a trunk that has at least some of the features you want.

I chose his tree because I’m new to bonsai at THIS moment, which means I was VERY new when I picked the tree up - basically, I had no idea what I was doing. I saw a tree I liked and didn’t think about all the elements that go into selecting a future bonsai. But, for all its flaws and weirdness I’ve fallen in love with it and promised it I would make it into something respectable. Maybe that sounds dumb, but it’s the truth. Me and this little tree are in it together for the long haul.

I’m leaning toward your suggestion in the first part of your post, chopping just above the lowest two branches and seeing what happens. I’ve got time and patience enough to work through this. Question is, when should I make that cut if that’s what I decide to do?

thank you for taking the time to reply!

 

[Srt8madness]

In Spring just as buds start to form, is typically a safe time to chop.

 

[Shibui]

I chose his tree because I’m new to bonsai at THIS moment, which means I was VERY new when I picked the tree up - basically, I had no idea what I was doing. I saw a tree I liked and didn’t think about all the elements that go into selecting a future bonsai. But, for all its flaws and weirdness I’ve fallen in love with it and promised it I would make it into something respectable. Maybe that sounds dumb, but it’s the truth. Me and this little tree are in it together for the long haul.

As I expected and all good enough reasons. We all make beginner choices that later turn out to have been not so wise in hindsight.
You should learn lots from the attempt to change the sow's ear into a silk purse. Might even make something to be proud of in the process.

I avoid early spring for chopping maples unless also root pruning. Down here maples bleed badly when pruned in late winter or spring before leaf out however root pruning stops the bleeding almost immediately.
After leaves have hardened in spring is another good time to chop tridents. Regrowth then is usually quite rapid while the trees are in fast growth mode. Leaves make it a little harder to see what you are up to but this chop is relatively straight forward.
At or soon after leaf drop is another time I chop tridents here but be aware we don't have the cold winters that you experience which may have some bearing on when is good for certain tasks.

 

[Scrogdor]

I'd chop this right above that second bend just above the pot line where the trunk starts to go straight up. Can see a few bud areas it looks like. You could air-layer it further up if you're into making more trees as well.

 

[Dav4]

Another option would be to work with the trunk you have... it does have subtle taper and movement in your second picture and you could turn this into a decent bonsai if you're willing to work with it for a while. Allowing whips to elongate up top in preparation for multiple thread and/or approach grafts lower down would be my suggestion if you're thinking about going that way. In the meantime, cover up as much of the nebari as you can and look into ways to improve it- focus on ground layering or root grafting.

 

[Dav4]

... and another option would be to plant it in your yard now and grow it out there for a few years while you look for different material. Ground grown tridents grow rapidly and respond extremely well to chops.

 

[Tieball]

I would bury those roots. Then I would chop I right about at the redline which would take advantage of the slight taper beginning to show. And then I would let it grow. And I would bury those roots well. That would be my approach.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I would bury those roots. Then I would chop I right about at the redline which would take advantage of the slight taper beginning to show. And then I would let it grow. And I would bury those roots well. That would be my approach.
View attachment 509137

This would be my path. Also, to handle that root sticking out............. I would fill the hole with either a piece of fitted driftwood, a suitable shaped stone or a bit of concrete mix shaped into the hollow, textured and painted to imitate a rotted hollow. Maybe bury the roots a bit but leave as much of the flair as possible. Keep it in that large container for a couple of years before putting in a bonsai pot.

 

[SandSquid]

I would bury those roots. Then I would chop I right about at the redline which would take advantage of the slight taper beginning to show. And then I would let it grow. And I would bury those roots well. That would be my approach.

A few of you have mentioned burying the roots well, I hadn’t thought of that and I should have, I’ll do that for sure ASAP!

im not too interested in air layering this tree. I have a JM I’m going to try my luck with for air layering.

this tree needs a chop, and I appreciate everyone talking me through this. I was initially leaning toward keeping as much of the foliage as possible while removing a good chunk of the upper tree. However, I AM willing to put the time and effort into this tree, and your illustration of where to chop along with other folks’ confidence that it will bud (or should, anyway) even making a drastic chop so low, makes total sense.

so, here’s my plan.

1. bury the roots!
2. chop at the location marked in the photo
3. keep it in the large pot it’s in right now, or an even larger one for the to few years

theres still some decisions to be made as to when to chop…. But sounds like I should wait until spring and do the chop and root prune at the same time. Sound about right?

thank you all again!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I would bury those roots.

I'm glad someone mentioned this.

@SandSquid when looking at your material, always start at the bottom and go up. Your biggest issue is not the straight trunk, but the bad roots that are really not fixable. In Seattle you should be able to find trident maple material pretty easily, so I would start with trying to fix the bottom of the tree first, versus trying to air-layer modest material off the top (which you could buy for cheap). Consider a ground layer at an angle while you still have a strong upper trunk to force the layer. Plus, since you can cut the air-layer girdle and then surround the layer with dirt, ground layers are sometimes a little easier to get to take.



Ground layer step 1... and wait for nice roots to explode. Then trunk chop at step 2... and away you go!

Nothing ventured nothing gained! And bonsai is all about time - getting the most progress in the least time. Don't screw around with your upper trunk when you REALLY want your big chunky base with a great nebari. And of course, the nice little secret - if you do a ground layer at a 45 degree angle, suddenly the base of your trunk becomes 1.4141x thicker. Or at least that's what math says

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Another option would be to work with the trunk you have... it does have subtle taper and movement in your second picture and you could turn this into a decent bonsai if you're willing to work with it for a while. Allowing whips to elongate up top in preparation for multiple thread and/or approach grafts lower down would be my suggestion if you're thinking about going that way. In the meantime, cover up as much of the nebari as you can and look into ways to improve it- focus on ground layering or root grafting.

I think this is what I would do if it were mine. Great suggestion. You can always layer later on after the grafts are set.