Tree anatomy, pruning, and root pruning

[JohnW63]

I just watched the following video:

http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/bonsai_videos.php?videoid=15

I was rather surprised at just hum MUCH of the roots he was able to cut off. He also snipped off quite a few surface roots too. How do you know how much and which roots you can remove and not kill parts of the tree ?

In some of his other videos, he gets pretty involved with removing bark and carving. He mentioned something about sections of the wood/bark supplying parts of the tree. How do you know what can be removed without causing real harm to the tree ?

Is there a book or web page that covers the anatomy of trees so I could be more confident on removing stuff ?

I haven't gotten any trees to begin with, yet, but I would like to know enough before I start.

 

[jk_lewis]

Good that you ask these questions. Too many would-be bonsaiests just start hacking away and only ask over the corpse of their victim.

A simple Google search on "tree anatomy" ought to get you started. Or, go to your library and scan though books on arborculture and botany.

Just remember that you have no idea if the tree in that video you were watching survived the treatment. And, you cannot take the same amount of root from trees of different kinds. ALL trees are different.

 

[Adair M]

Trees that you buy from regular nurserys or big box stores will not have roots like that. Graham said it was imported from Japan, so the roots had been worked before it was put in the big pot. It was also growing in bonsai soil. Regular nursery stock will be potted in heavy organic soil, which is not as conducive to producing the fine root structure you saw on the video.

Most nursery roots will be much heavier, and instead of radiating out will either be circular or growing straight down. The root ball Graham has is ideal.

About Graham: He is very talented, and he specializes in carving up stumps and "creates" bonsai out of material most of us would consider hopeless. His woodcarving skills are unique. Most bonsai are not created this way. Sure, select a great trunk and chop it, and regrow branches, that's mainstream. The carving Graham does is very advanced, and most bonsai practitioners do not do it.

 

[Poink88]

What jkl said and note that proper timing is as critical if not the most critical part of the operation. He mentioned it several times and at length but need to be reiterated.

Things I would have done different from the video would be:
- start cleaning the top of soil and expose the nebari first
- once top is determined, saw off the bottom part of the root ball (maybe just leave twice as deep as the next pot.
- clean the bottom and sides as he did.

I believe this approach is more efficient but his method is perfect as well.

Note too that the plant was growing in proper bonsai soil and trained properly. NEVER expect to do the same on newly collected plants or regular nursery plants. You may get away with it on very few species but most will probably die if treated this way straight up.

Good luck!

 

[GrimLore]

What jkl said and note that proper timing is as critical if not the most critical part of the operation. He mentioned it several times and at length but need to be reiterated.

Things I would have done different from the video would be:
- start cleaning the top of soil and expose the nebari first
- once top is determined, saw off the bottom part of the root ball (maybe just leave twice as deep as the next pot.
- clean the bottom and sides as he did.

I believe this approach is more efficient but his method is perfect as well.

Note too that the plant was growing in proper bonsai soil and trained properly. NEVER expect to do the same on newly collected plants or regular nursery plants. You may get away with it on very few species but most will probably die if treated this way straight up.

Good luck!

Agree 100% - Took us 3 years to change over a big box plum and get it to a point where I could do a radicle root reduction. 3 years may seem like a lot but it was well worth every day of it. At present we are re-training a few other fruit trees in similar fashion - In my opinion one of the better things about Bonsai is that it has the ability to slow a person down. The outcome is a healthier person and some darn nice trees!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Things I would have done different from the video would be:
(...)
I believe this approach is more efficient but his method is perfect as well.

"Things I would have done..." is meaningless, except to show that you disagree with yet another seasoned practitioner...only to retreat yet again with a comment that his method also works.

What things HAVE you done? That's what actually counts here. Produce your own video and share your techniques. Check back every 3-6 months and share photos of the results over time; that's the good stuff, not adding or subtracting $.02 to those who do show HOW the work is done.

I suspect (and only speak for myself) that long-timers' participation is dropping off because it's not worth arguing over every single post.

Al...I need a bunker.

 

[Poink88]

"Things I would have done..." is meaningless, except to show that you disagree with yet another seasoned practitioner...only to retreat yet again with a comment that his method also works.

What things HAVE you done? That's what actually counts here. Produce your own video and share your techniques. Check back every 3-6 months and share photos of the results over time; that's the good stuff, not adding or subtracting $.02 to those who do show HOW the work is done.

I suspect (and only speak for myself) that long-timers' participation is dropping off because it's not worth arguing over every single post.

Al...I need a bunker.

So do you disagree with my method or just everything and anything I say (in short me)?

Please tell us how you do it...more like Graham's or mine?

 

[Poink88]

And if you can Brian, please point out what I am doing wrong so I may improve my method. It will be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Adair M]

Dario,

As I alluded to in my previous post, techniques that are appropriate for refined roots are different than techniques used for rough stock.

From reading the zillions of posts you have made about your trees, it appears to me that you are collecting a lot of yardadori and nursery material. These are trees with rough roots that you will be working on for some time to refine. Doing what you describe is fine for a first step.

That tree that Graham was working on had highly refined roots. They had obviously been worked for years to develop to that extent. He had put it in the large pot to build strength, but he knew he had a radial root system with no large tap roots to deal with. Sure, there were a couple of runaway surface roots, but nothing major.

Since he knew he wasn't going to have any tap roots, there was no need to saw off the bottom.

In fact, I would not be at all surprised if that tree wasn't an air layer that he had removed from the stock, and up potted into the bigger pot! (He did say it was an imported tree, so that's probably not the case... or maybe it was created as an airlayer in Japan before it was imported... who knows?)

Anyway, my point is, bonsai trees in different stages of development get different treatments. I'm not aware that you have much experience with highly refined trees, so your methods may not be appropriate for all trees.

And I've been at this for 42 years. And I'm still learning...

 

[Poink88]

Adair,

Thanks.

I am aware of the differences but what makes the process different? I need to reduce the root ball to a few inch deep flat surface...why not saw most of it off? What makes it necessary to pick at the root ball little by little with a rake? On a 11 inch deep pot...that can take a long time...and for what? I actually believe picking on it can cause more damage to the roots you want to eventually keep.

There may be a good reason but it eludes me right now. Anyone know for sure and can tell me? Otherwise, I will only see it as an old practice perpetuated w/o it's validity being challenged. IF it can be improved upon, why not?

Thank you.

 

[jk_lewis]

Not all roots are created equal. Hacking them off results in a haphazard clump of roots -- some live, some dead, many damaged, not a few dieing, some too large, others become malformed and unable to function properly. Still others are just left out of place. Careful root work results in a healthier, more stable tree.

The roots are what holds your tree up, anchors it in the pot, and contributes to transpiration and feeding. They are as equally (or more) important as the top to the health of your bonsai. Just because you can't see them . . . .

 

[berobinson82]

JohnW63,

Please pardon the bickering. It gets punchy around here sometimes yet if you read between the bickering, there exist nuggets of wisdom; even here in this thread. I can appreciate that you've gone to so much trouble to study and research before buying a Walmartsai and asking "now what?" like so many other have in the past.

Your post alludes to a botanical question rather than a styling question which again, is evidence that your focus is in the right arena.

I'll try and give some advice on your original question; I will not argue or suggest any subject matter that I don't have experience with.

This feller knew how much he could reduce from decades of working with that species. In my first year I was astounded by how little root mass could sustain a tree. Then I realized that the root pads on these mature bonsai aren't typical. They are packed so dense with feeder roots that their volume is almost deceiving when compared to a typically grown nursery plant.

I was very anxious to reduce roots year 1. My reasoning, and perhaps understandably so, was that I wanted to get trees in bonsai pots quickly. You're not doing bonsai if you don't have em in small pots right? Wrong!

On some species, like junipers and pines for example, it is oft recommended to remove about 1/3 of the root ball your first year working on the roots and potting the tree back into a more suitable bonsai soil mix. This practice (along with others) encourages the dense pad of feeder roots as you've observed in the video you posted. That dense pad allows a MUCH smaller root system because it is so much more efficient.

I would advise not to be overly worried right now on root reduction as you've seen Graham do. Depending on the species you want to work with, maybe a good starting point is producing your own bonsai soil. Figuring out what kind of sunlight you have to work with. Pick up a piece of stock or 8 and keep them alive for a year without drastic root reductions (that will give you some leeway).

Hope this helped in some way.

Pardon my long-winded response. Just trying to steer this ship back into your harbor.


@Poink - Maybe he wanted to inspect the root ball before hacking away at it with a saw... Perhaps your method would have worked, but I certainly would prefer the slower more careful method. What's another 20 minutes? Hasty work might have ruined years worth of work.

 

[Poink88]

I bet he knows the root condition before he prepped the 2" or so deep pot he intended to put the tree on. (common sense anyone?)

IF I am not aware of the real root condition, I understand going the slower process but for sure I won't attempt to put it in that bonsai pot. (As I mentioned in my original post)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Adair,

Thanks.

I am aware of the differences but what makes the process different? I need to reduce the root ball to a few inch deep flat surface...why not saw most of it off? What makes it necessary to pick at the root ball little by little with a rake? On a 11 inch deep pot...that can take a long time...and for what? I actually believe picking on it can cause more damage to the roots you want to eventually keep.

There may be a good reason but it eludes me right now. Anyone know for sure and can tell me? Otherwise, I will only see it as an old practice perpetuated w/o it's validity being challenged. IF it can be improved upon, why not?

Thank you.

THIS is the entire point of my post #6 above. It is absurd to suggest a different way if you don't have enough experience to know the implications.

I don't disagree with all of your methods, I disagree with you issuing a hypothesis and claim that should be better or equal to what people with PROVEN EXPERIENCE share.

GO TRY IT, keep a camera handy as you work, and bring back your results...you might be right, but don't just speculate here. With your post count, people will assume you are drawing on experience to support the constant chatter.

You ask what methods I use to work on roots. There are probably more photos of the roots of my Chishio maple than the leaves. There is no shortage of documentation of how I handle roots of many trees...if you really want to know, go find it, I have a bunker to build.

 

[berobinson82]

I bet he knows the root condition before he prepped the 2" or so deep pot he intended to put the tree on. (common sense anyone?)

IF I am not aware of the real root condition, I understand going the slower process but for sure I won't attempt to put it in that bonsai pot. (As I mentioned in my original post)

Damn D,

I was really trying hard to just have a conversation and you're so stuck in your arrogant funk you lash out and attack my common sense without merit. I look forward to watching your youtube channel. I'll subscribe and like every video. I promise.

 

[Poink88]

Brian,

Some people need their hands held every step and turn of the way, others don't. Unlike you, I have no training from famous bonsai artists and honestly, I am inclined now on holding off just to prove to myself that it can be done.

Keep playing the experience card now (get as much mileage as you can) because eventually, it won't work anymore. Yes, I will show my results if I wish and in my time and way...not yours. Do it your way and I'll do it mine. Agreed?

I've built real bunkers for the US military (I love the Tomahawk missile facility the most), if you need help, send me a PM.

Thank you.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Damn D,

I was really trying hard to just have a conversation and you're so stuck in your arrogant funk you lash out and attack my common sense without merit. I look forward to watching your youtube channel. I'll subscribe and like every video. I promise.

Why use YouTube? There has to be a better way, I would do a reality TV show, and have dashboard cameras follow him around to various digging sites and stream reality TV as he stakes out, then descends on unsuspecting landscaping crews, using something better than shovels to dig and something better than a saw to cut, and plant them in something better than ceramic pots. JMHO, as I brand new to the whole reality TV thing, but Invent or stagnate, that's what I say.

(sorry Dario...had to)

 

[Poink88]

Why use YouTube? There has to be a better way, I would do a reality TV show, and have dashboard cameras follow him around to various digging sites and stream reality TV as he stakes out, then descends on unsuspecting landscaping crews, using something better than shovels to dig and something better than a saw to cut, and plant them in something better than ceramic pots. JMHO, as I brand new to the whole reality TV thing, but Invent or stagnate, that's what I say.

(sorry Dario...had to)

Good one. Let's talk to Si if he wants to produce it. LOL

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Keep playing the experience card now (get as much mileage as you can) because eventually, it won't work anymore. Yes, I will show my results if I wish and in my time and way...not yours. Do it your way and I'll do it mine. Agreed?
Thank you.

Agreed...if you put your money where your mouth is. Posting isn't practicing.

And just remember...while you're studying, so am I. Ready when you are.

 

[Poink88]

And just remember...while you're studying, so am I. Ready when you are.

It never was a challenge in case you see it that way. But I know I will grow and will shed my newbie status eventually.

If you must know, I respect you...a lot. You are better than how you portray yourself and need an evil nemesis (like me?) to jolt you to reality. (remember the maple chop?) You can fly now...you just need to leap.