To pinch or not to pinch...

[misfit11]

The most recent article in Stone Lantern's "Bonsai Bark" blog focuses on the debate about whether to pinch or not pinch junipers. This topic seems to have come up a lot lately and I'm curious about what everyone in the Nut House has to say about it. I had relayed a comment that Ryan Neil made at a REBS demo in a recent thread by edprocoat concerning his shohin shimpaku. Ryan had said that he 'never once pinched a juniper during [his] apprencticeship in Japan'. It also seems that Michael Hagedorn also endorses this "rule" as he discusses in his blog here: http://crataegus.com/2012/08/26/how-to-pinch-junipers/

What do you all think about this? Is there some validity to it? Is it nonsense and pinching is the only way to achieve a quality Juniper bonsai? The Stone Lantern article seems to leave the argument open.

Here is the Stone Lantern article:

http://bonsaibark.com/2012/09/01/pinch-dont-pinch/

Here is the thread on the forum:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?8659-Mini-Shimp&highlight=mini+shimp

 

[jk_lewis]

FWIW, I pinch. I don't have many junipers (or conifers), but they all seem happy. They are developing nice adult foliage.

 

[Dav4]

I'm in the "dont' pinch, but prune back to woody growth" camp. I've been doing this for only a year, but my junipers all seem to be growing and developing more consistently. From a plant physiology standpoint, it makes alot of sense, too.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'm in the don't pinch camp too. Looking at the growth patterns, it makes sense to leave as many of the actively growing tips as possible, and removing the too-strong runners. Since I've starting doing this, over the last 2 years, my junipers grow harder, and the foliage is tighter.

 

[berobinson82]

So confused. When I pinched my junipers, they regen'd with ramified growth. Is there a difference in developing junis and those "of age"?

 

[HotAction]

Pinching is an outdated method. Of all the bonsai masters I have worked with or spoke to, none have advocated pinching a juniper in development. They all share the same advice, let the new growth run and get real strong, then prune back to develop ramification. This list of masters includes Ryan Neil, Boon, Walter Pall, Marco, and others.

Dave

 

[Vance Wood]

Pinching is an outdated method. Of all the bonsai masters I have worked with or spoke to, none have advocated pinching a juniper in development. They all share the same advice, let the new growth run and get real strong, then prune back to develop ramification. This list of masters includes Ryan Neil, Boon, Walter Pall, Marco, and others.

Dave

That still does not answer the questions of what to do once the ramification is developed and a decent profile is developed. I would agree with the development aspect of what you have described, but what do you do when you are maintaining a good ramification and great profile? Please don't tell me to read the article, I really want to hear from someone who knows from experience not reading or talking to someone who has talked to someone who knows. I am not trying to be argumentitive but I don't know how else to word this request.

 

[cmeg1]

check out the new Bonsai Art of Japan #28

 

[Bill S]

Vance sooner or later you pinch a little, add Suthin to that list by the way. Left, right, up, left, right, up. left, right, up.

I haven't had one done long enough to get to the point of needing to cut back hard to maintain/regrow a mature tree yet though.

Pinching makes nice pom poms if you like topiary though.

Isn't one of Boons videos all about this?

 

[Adrian]

I was taught by experienced members at my bonsai workshop that pinching retards growth. I am now using scissors to prune down to barewood and prune to achieve compactness. so far it has been working - for me....just my limited experience.

 

[october]

Vance, at the 5:30 mark you will see someone with experience pinching mature junipers to maintain the profile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXBolLNIFYo&list=UUMIZqKAtSetjReDVLvBV0tA&index=1&feature=plcp

Hello brv549 that is not pinching, that is cutting. It looks like he is pinching because he is holding the end and cutting inside the foliage pad at the same time.

In my opinion. I hardly ever pinch any junipers. With the occasion of just a pinch here and there, that is it.

I can give you a great example horticulturally why you shouldn't pinch (as a main reduction technique) and actually why the pinching technique can be counter productive.... When foliage grows, it grows from everywhere on the tree. If you were to pinch to keep the silouhette, you would need to pinch the entire tree from everywhere it is growing, this may weaken the tree to the point where most of it dies.

Also, what I think a lot of new enthusiasts might not understand is that, for the most part, pinching is for nearly finished trees, finished trees and older trees. Trees that are 30 plus years old and have been in trainign for a few years..or younger trees that have been in training for 5 or 10 plus years. These are just rough guide lines and for example. It depends on the individual tree.

Rob

 

[Shimpaku]

I don't want to misrepresent my experience. I have only been actively involved in Bonsai for a couple years. I love Junipers and I have a few. I had many when first starting and I thought pinching was the right way to go. I wanted to be involved and felt that it gave me something to do and was doing the tree a service. But I'll tell you, the best Junipers that I have remain un-pinched. It seemed that pinching retarded the growth and development of the tree overall. The pinched trees seemed anemic and the un-pinched exuded POWER. I just remove what I don't want and let the rest grow. I do let the tips of branches continue to extend to harden new growth. I remove the occasional over acheiver and smaller dense growth seems to take its place. But I am so happy that doing nothing at all, other than wiring for position, turned out to be the way to go with the Junipers that I have. Again, I am just speaking from observation.

 

[Gary Swiech]

Isn't one of Boons videos all about this?

Yes. His newest CD video is called- "Scale Junipers: Styling and Maintenance" and I think it's

excellent. Boon does a Itoigawa Shimpaku and a Rocky Mountain juniper along with how and

what to cut and what not to pinch and visa versa.

Excellent video, I learned a lot.

 

[Vance Wood]

I was taught by experienced members at my bonsai workshop that pinching retards growth. I am now using scissors to prune down to barewood and prune to achieve compactness. so far it has been working - for me....just my limited experience.

What is demonstrated in this video is not what I would call pinching, or anything substituted for it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

What is demonstrated in this video is not what I would call pinching, or anything substituted for it.

And?

Do you object to the terminology, the method, or the results?

Do you believe that pinching, defined as ripping off handfuls of the growing tips, is a preferred method to maintaining a good ramification and great profile?

 

[Vance Wood]

And?

Do you object to the terminology, the method, or the results?

Do you believe that pinching, defined as ripping off handfuls of the growing tips, is a preferred method to maintaining a good ramification and great profile?

I guess I object to demonstrating what I would call thinning as being synonymous and a substitute superior to the process I have come to know as pinching.

Pinching, as I define it, is not ripping off handfuls of growing tips but the careful and targeted plucking off of growing ends that have exceeded an established profile. I have used this technique for more than thirty years and have had no adverse effects because of it. The process as demonstrated in the vedio does little to clearly show how or what you do to establish a good profile or what to do as the tree's growth approaches this parameter as how to control it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

So it's terminology, as the technique you describe sounds identical to what Bjorn demonstrated in his recent video.

Here it is another pro who knows it from experience too. Simply stated, Never Pinch Junipers!

Not to refute a technique that's worked for you for 30 years, but it appears thinning is the new pinching.