The Mugo thread aka the Vance Wood cult
- Thread starter jeanluc83
- Start date
Jason_mazzy
Chumono
remove those whorls down to your primary branch before you get the dreaded knot.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I dont understand...? Did someone PM you and tell you your trees were crap??
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I agree what happened? Your trees are not crap and do not get sucked into thinking that is the case. Many would be happy if you failed.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
heres my Mugo
What's the history on this tree?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Whorls are the branch formations that are produced when a series of buds that usually form at the ends of branches. They begin to look like the spokes on a wheel as they develop into branches, and if they are all left to develop vigorous branches the base at the trunk can be increased to produce what we recognize as a knuckle. You tree does not look like it is headed that direction yet though you would be best served to make sure you are not developing branches that emerge from the same horizontal alignment around the trunk. As long as your branches are not directly accros from each other or, side by side with each other, you should not have a knuckle problem.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I am pretty certain Vance did not see your posts 58 and 59 asking for suggestions with the recent "colorful" other threads keeping him distracted. I would like to help but they are not a species I consider myself experienced enough to do so except styling. Your specimens certainly look very healthy and it appears you have mastered growing them. I am certain he will help out if he sees this.
Grimmy
RKatzin
Omono
Hi all, this was an experssion of my frustrastion, more with my enability to get good representation of my trees. I know it's not the trees fault and I can't blame anyone for not commenting on crappy photos. (I took over a hundred, each as crappy as the one before)
The church thing is about me. I am uneducated (ged), uncouth and unruley at times. I sometimes feel I have no place among educated gentle folk. I've never committed a crime of violence or taken what doen't belong to me, but I've been an outlaw all my life. When I do venture into the public arenas I feel like a new comer to Catholic church, I never know whether to stand or kneal or when to say amen.
I certainly did not mean an insult to anyone and if that happened then I would sincerly appologize. I know how busy everyone is, me too, and I do most sincerly thank all for any and all time invested. Thanks, Rick
The church thing is about me. I am uneducated (ged), uncouth and unruley at times. I sometimes feel I have no place among educated gentle folk. I've never committed a crime of violence or taken what doen't belong to me, but I've been an outlaw all my life. When I do venture into the public arenas I feel like a new comer to Catholic church, I never know whether to stand or kneal or when to say amen.
I certainly did not mean an insult to anyone and if that happened then I would sincerly appologize. I know how busy everyone is, me too, and I do most sincerly thank all for any and all time invested. Thanks, Rick
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Still: If there is anything I, me and we can do to help let us know what's chewing on the unreachable parts of your anatomy, where they cannot be scratched.
RKatzin
Omono
Ok, back on track again then. (I think Mercury is no longer retrograding)
If you look back to the pics of the tree in the ground I think you can see that I changed the entire posture of the tree when I potted it. You can see a big crows foot in the front and that is now up in top of the tree. I angled the tree when I planted it in the ground and then stood it up again when it potted it.
As you can see none of this is now visible. Much of the foliage that was close to the ground was dead and I removed all of it and any shedding needles from what was the dark underbelly. I have not removed any live needles or cut any limbs, nothing except pick out the litter.
Ok, whats biting my butt is I want to remove the downward needles at least, just to open the tree up for better light and air flow. It seems very congested and there are tons of little back buds about an inch long in there. I think it will look incredible if you could only see into it a little. I had allowed everything to grow on this spring and did not touch the tree until removal.
I've never found a little thinning to be hurtful, in fact beneficial, but this is my first time on the table with what I think could be a great tree. It appears in excellent health, I barely touched the roots on removing the tree. Was almost like a slip pot and I left a good core of garden soil. She didn't bat an eye. HMMMM, sounds like I'm tring to talk someone into something. At pause, Rick
If you look back to the pics of the tree in the ground I think you can see that I changed the entire posture of the tree when I potted it. You can see a big crows foot in the front and that is now up in top of the tree. I angled the tree when I planted it in the ground and then stood it up again when it potted it.
As you can see none of this is now visible. Much of the foliage that was close to the ground was dead and I removed all of it and any shedding needles from what was the dark underbelly. I have not removed any live needles or cut any limbs, nothing except pick out the litter.
Ok, whats biting my butt is I want to remove the downward needles at least, just to open the tree up for better light and air flow. It seems very congested and there are tons of little back buds about an inch long in there. I think it will look incredible if you could only see into it a little. I had allowed everything to grow on this spring and did not touch the tree until removal.
I've never found a little thinning to be hurtful, in fact beneficial, but this is my first time on the table with what I think could be a great tree. It appears in excellent health, I barely touched the roots on removing the tree. Was almost like a slip pot and I left a good core of garden soil. She didn't bat an eye. HMMMM, sounds like I'm tring to talk someone into something. At pause, Rick
Hi rick
It is difficult to take pics and show perspective and depth within tree..
I know there is a lot going on in your trees hard to see thru the healthy branches and needles
. I have the same difficulty with getting good pics. Sometimes it helps to pull a branch aside cover w paper and have a little more distance from the tree. Ru 3 handed ha ha. It is an art by itself to get the good photos.
Anyway will be an interesting progression with the mugos.
Is there a club in grants pass? Not one here near roseburg.
Rose
Sw oregon
It is difficult to take pics and show perspective and depth within tree..
I know there is a lot going on in your trees hard to see thru the healthy branches and needles
. I have the same difficulty with getting good pics. Sometimes it helps to pull a branch aside cover w paper and have a little more distance from the tree. Ru 3 handed ha ha. It is an art by itself to get the good photos.Anyway will be an interesting progression with the mugos.
Is there a club in grants pass? Not one here near roseburg.
Rose
Sw oregon
RKatzin
Omono
Hi Rose, thanks for chiming in, it's so good to hear from someone almost local. To the best of my knowledge there is no active clubs in our area. There are some listings with the ABS, but they lead to dead ends, no answers from calls or e-mails. I consider myself to be the Southern Oregon Bonsai Club and we meet whenever you show up. LOL There does seem to be alot of bonsai going on, but no one getting together on a regular basis, (at least I have not been invited) something I would very much like to change. You know S. Or., things move at glacial speed. I would like to see a regional club (Roseburg to Ashland, K-Falls to Gold Beach, Southern Oregon) established with a central home base and meeting held at members locations throughout the region. We need to do workshops and demos, share info and trees. I keep trying, but it's real hard to get these mountain folk to come out.
A good camera does alot for the pics. Almost all shots have the branches pulled back. Omg, you wouldn't believe the argument that can ensue over the right way to pull a branch back to get a pic. Don't grab it like that! One finger on it and don't pull so hard and hold the damn thing still! (and she walks away in tears) I'd rather suffer the bad pics. LOL Very pleased to meet you Rose, Rick
A good camera does alot for the pics. Almost all shots have the branches pulled back. Omg, you wouldn't believe the argument that can ensue over the right way to pull a branch back to get a pic. Don't grab it like that! One finger on it and don't pull so hard and hold the damn thing still! (and she walks away in tears) I'd rather suffer the bad pics. LOL Very pleased to meet you Rose, Rick
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Hey Rick,
I dont check the forums on the weekends because it is summer and I am having much more fun outside in the fresh air than sitting at a computer.
I am more than willing to help out with advice where I can, but I too am still very new to bonsai.
Dont give up if someone doesnt respond right away and keep bumping the thread if you need to.
I also share your frustration about photos. Getting good photos that show what you want, especially on complex trees can be tricky.
Ill take another look when I get home tonight.
I dont check the forums on the weekends because it is summer and I am having much more fun outside in the fresh air than sitting at a computer.
I am more than willing to help out with advice where I can, but I too am still very new to bonsai.
Dont give up if someone doesnt respond right away and keep bumping the thread if you need to.
I also share your frustration about photos. Getting good photos that show what you want, especially on complex trees can be tricky.
Ill take another look when I get home tonight.
larlamonde
Shohin
Hey guys how easy do mugos air layer? Too late in the season to try one now?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I have never tried one. Usually air-layering is a technique used by people to obtain material unobtainable by any other means. However they do grow from cuttings so and air-layer should not present a problem.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Ok Rick,
I looked back at the the post where you were asking for advice on thinning it out.
It is really hard to give you any real specific advice based on the pictures which is probably why no one responded. The tree is very dense and there is a ton going on, but it is hard to see exactly what. That is a good thing though because you probably have plenty of options.
I am still very new myself and sometimes I am afraid of giving any advice because I dont want to give the wrong advice. I want to help and I have a few mugos that Ive been in your situation with so Ill tell you what I would do if it was my tree. What you decide is ultimately up to you.
The only advice I can give you is, when you have some quiet time, put the tree on one of those rotating stands (forget the damn correct name at the moment) and sit down with it. Rotate it around and look at all of your options for trunks and branch lines. Take your time and think about where you might want to go. You can start eliminating those you dont think that youll want in the end design. BUT remember do not remove too much at this point. You just yanked the tree out of the ground and put it into a box. No matter how careful you were to not disturb the roots, chances are they did get disturbed and the tree will need to recover. To be safe, I would not remove more than 20-25 percent of the foliage if it was my tree.
This pretty much goes for any of the trees you recently dug up.
I hope this did help some and am sorry I cant be more specific than that, it is just really hard to see what is going on with the tree.
All of them look healthy and look like they could be promising material. Just try to curb the enthusiasm and try not to do too much to them at this point.
Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.
I looked back at the the post where you were asking for advice on thinning it out.
It is really hard to give you any real specific advice based on the pictures which is probably why no one responded. The tree is very dense and there is a ton going on, but it is hard to see exactly what. That is a good thing though because you probably have plenty of options.
I am still very new myself and sometimes I am afraid of giving any advice because I dont want to give the wrong advice. I want to help and I have a few mugos that Ive been in your situation with so Ill tell you what I would do if it was my tree. What you decide is ultimately up to you.
The only advice I can give you is, when you have some quiet time, put the tree on one of those rotating stands (forget the damn correct name at the moment) and sit down with it. Rotate it around and look at all of your options for trunks and branch lines. Take your time and think about where you might want to go. You can start eliminating those you dont think that youll want in the end design. BUT remember do not remove too much at this point. You just yanked the tree out of the ground and put it into a box. No matter how careful you were to not disturb the roots, chances are they did get disturbed and the tree will need to recover. To be safe, I would not remove more than 20-25 percent of the foliage if it was my tree.
This pretty much goes for any of the trees you recently dug up.
I hope this did help some and am sorry I cant be more specific than that, it is just really hard to see what is going on with the tree.
All of them look healthy and look like they could be promising material. Just try to curb the enthusiasm and try not to do too much to them at this point.
Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.
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Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Forgot to mention that for whatever branches you decide to cut now, leave a inch or so stub. That will help prevent any associated trunk dieoff. Youll be able to remove them totally in year or two once they have dried out. If there are some that might make nice jin then leave a longer stub to allow for carving it later on.
Remember to seal all wounds with cut paste or some other substance that serves the same purpose. I currently use modelling clay of a color close to the trunk color mixed with a bit of vasoline. Seems to cover well and not get rock hard.
Remember to seal all wounds with cut paste or some other substance that serves the same purpose. I currently use modelling clay of a color close to the trunk color mixed with a bit of vasoline. Seems to cover well and not get rock hard.
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RKatzin
Omono
Hi Paradox, Thanks for the response and I'm pretty much on par with your thoughts and this is what I have been doing since potting up the tree. I have it up on the table still and I can walk around it and look into it from all angles and just thinking on possibilities as I discover new hidden sections. I spend as much time with it as I can each day, it's right in the middle of my work station and I get glances into it at different times as the sun passes. Sometimes I stop what I'm doing and go, 'what's that?' and go look at that area.
I don't intend to cut any wood at this time and would only want to do some foliage thinning so you can see what's going on in the interior of the tree. There was alot of back budding in the posture the tree was in because I was working to keep light coming in. In the new posture there's alot of foliage that is blocking the interior of the tree from getting any light.
There is a little bit of shedding going on, but it's all big old needles and I've been removing them as they yellow out and only when they fall off easily to the touch. There's not enough of that to make a difference though, so I'm thinking of selectively removing some downward needles and excess needles along the trunks.
Maybe I'm overplaying the air and light thing, but to me these are very important factors in the health of the tree. Round and round the mulberry bush... Ok, so maybe the tree needs every leaf to recover, but I question what good is the leaf if no sun can get to it?
Now wait, let me get my fingers firmly planted in my ears, ok, now talk to me.
For you Vance, at least I'm always worth a chuckle.
Seriouly, I'm waiting, however impatiently it may seem, for response from the gallery, what say you? Rick
I don't intend to cut any wood at this time and would only want to do some foliage thinning so you can see what's going on in the interior of the tree. There was alot of back budding in the posture the tree was in because I was working to keep light coming in. In the new posture there's alot of foliage that is blocking the interior of the tree from getting any light.
There is a little bit of shedding going on, but it's all big old needles and I've been removing them as they yellow out and only when they fall off easily to the touch. There's not enough of that to make a difference though, so I'm thinking of selectively removing some downward needles and excess needles along the trunks.
Maybe I'm overplaying the air and light thing, but to me these are very important factors in the health of the tree. Round and round the mulberry bush... Ok, so maybe the tree needs every leaf to recover, but I question what good is the leaf if no sun can get to it?
Now wait, let me get my fingers firmly planted in my ears, ok, now talk to me.
For you Vance, at least I'm always worth a chuckle.
Seriouly, I'm waiting, however impatiently it may seem, for response from the gallery, what say you? Rick
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Without being able to actually see the inside of the tree I really hate to give advise as where to cut. Mugos, under the right circumstances, can produce a lot of back budding and in turn a lot of useless branches growing on the inside of the tree. Much of that can be removed unless it occupies locations where your design preferences may be enhanced by leaving them. Most of the time, once you have the super structure of a design set, it is best to remove heavy branches and replace them with lesser branches.
You want and need to thin the growth to allow light to the interior of the tree. Here is what you do; and it is boring and tedious. Start by removing all of this years new growth down to where it started this spring but leave about 1mm of the base of the new candles. If the new growth is weak and small but in areas where it is needed leave it alone. The growth that is left, needles and small shoots should be reduced by removing anything that grows straight down and anything that grows straight up on a branch by branch basis. If you do this your tree will look like crap for a while but it will survive the process provided the tree is healthy. It will produce a mountain of back budding and incredible new growth next spring. I should add this: Do not remove needles by pulling them off as is the practice with JBP, cut them off at the fasicle with scissors. If you pull off the needles you also pull off many of the buds you want to encourage to grow.
You want and need to thin the growth to allow light to the interior of the tree. Here is what you do; and it is boring and tedious. Start by removing all of this years new growth down to where it started this spring but leave about 1mm of the base of the new candles. If the new growth is weak and small but in areas where it is needed leave it alone. The growth that is left, needles and small shoots should be reduced by removing anything that grows straight down and anything that grows straight up on a branch by branch basis. If you do this your tree will look like crap for a while but it will survive the process provided the tree is healthy. It will produce a mountain of back budding and incredible new growth next spring. I should add this: Do not remove needles by pulling them off as is the practice with JBP, cut them off at the fasicle with scissors. If you pull off the needles you also pull off many of the buds you want to encourage to grow.
