The Bonsai Master Myth...

[Forsoothe!]

OK, Now we also have Bonsai Far Eastern Insiders to ponder as well as Bonsai Master's....
So studying, learning & being approve by an Insider in the Far East is the Key to becoming a Bonsai Master ???
No American educated, learned, experienced can be a Bonsai Master ???

That is possibly the worst interpretation of the English language I have seen in a long, long time. If you have to be told that the insiders from the far east would be the existing Masters, then your 2nd grade teacher should have been fired.

 

[Bolero]

The day after you buy the tshirt on Amazon.
View attachment 262057
That's how I became a luchador as well.
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Now you're talking.....

 

[Bolero]

Food for Thought... Walter Pall considers himself an Amature Professional designing away from Traditional Asian Bonsai towards Naturalistic looking small trees...

 

[leatherback]

Food for Thought... Walter Pall considers himself an Amature Professional designing away from Traditional Asian Bonsai towards Naturalistic looking small trees...

Really, who cares. Get over yourself and put more effort in your trees

 

[bwaynef]

I can't really figure this forum out. A guy known for posting belligerently provocative posts gets a thread that's still centered (mostly) on what he started the thread about by the time it gets to the 3rd page. I ask a question and try to point out on the first line what I'm NOT looking for in responses ...and the bulk of the responses center on exactly what I asked NOT to receive.

Regardless, ...and maybe I'm now guilty of what I was just saying..., I think bonsai in America could use a certifying body. Its changing a bit for the better from when I started, but there's no shortage of folks who don't know what they're doing, that have no qualms pretending they do. There's no shortage of folks who claim "Art" and "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" when they've failed to apply quality technique and design to they're trees in an effort to stifle critique. (As if "Art" is beyond critique!) I see it locally (and if you're checking my location, its probably not who you think).

Having some authority deem mastery (and hopefully it wouldn't use the word "Master") could eventually usher most of the shysters out of the market. I wonder how many folks in Japan set up shop teaching folks that don't have any more training than (whatever the Japanese equivalent would be to) a familiarity with Naka's Techniques I & II. I would suspect that person wouldn't get a wide market share of students, simply because there is a culture there that would expose folks to high quality trees if they wanted to see it ...and from that, folks would know whom to seek out for education.

I know that Colin Lewis was working on an association of bonsai professionals some time ago, but I don't know if anything ever came of it. I'd imagine it would need to be spearheaded by someone with more clout than me, ...and I'd trust that group to come up with its own criteria. (But just to get them started: Probably something like looking at past work for some small group of professionals, ...and some formal process from there on out. Maybe a grandfathering-in of those with certificates from other (recognized) certifying bodies like the Nippon Bonsai Association.)

If nothing else, if the US had this, we could put an end to threads of this nature pretty quickly.

 

[Vance Wood]

When I think of a Master Artist I think of M:Angelo, DiVinci, David, Goya,,, etc...........
not some old guy who faithfully waters and prunes his old tree in a pot....

I think you are missing the point here, there is certianly a lot more to bonsai than watering, pruning and keeping trees in pots.

There are on the surface of the matter two aspects that go beyond the obvious of keeping the tree in a pot and keeping it alive. Making the tree behave in the way you intend it to grow and start looking the way you want it to is the art part of the practice. That aspect of bonsai does not happen by itself and demands a degree of effort, forethought, and ability. The alternative is to have a tree that looks like a weed having sprung up in a pot. If that is what pleases you it is not my place to tell you it is wrong, neither is it your place to tell me I am wrong. However as is the case in all visual arts (bonsai it one) it is the image that attracts the attention of viewers.

 

[Mayank]

When I think of a Master Artist I think of M:Angelo, DiVinci, David, Goya,,, etc...........
not some old guy who faithfully waters and prunes his old tree in a pot....

Just got my David de Groot book from stone lantern thanks to bnutters for letting me know it was on sale. First paragraph of the preface answers this above condescending statement well.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

I can't really figure this forum out. A guy known for posting belligerently provocative posts gets a thread that's still centered (mostly) on what he started the thread about by the time it gets to the 3rd page. I ask a question and try to point out on the first line what I'm NOT looking for in responses ...and the bulk of the responses center on exactly what I asked NOT to receive.

Infuriating, ain't it?

 

[Anthony]

The proof of the pie is in the eating.

Masters of oil painting in Europe, had to sit a
test as apprentices to become Masters.

An ancient tradition, where the original painters.
way back in the past ran workshops and others
were so impressed by their work and called them - masters.

In North Amerrica the same is happening.

No need to discuss a normal aspect of life.

Oil painting or Ink painting or Floating world.

Does it catch your eye and enter your mind to satisfy your heart?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Bolero]

I think I've really struck a cord here with this OP...
Mayank, my fellow Michigander, I've taken class's with David DeGroot when he was here at University of Michigan Botanical Gardens thru Ann Arbor Bonsai Society, he is a really talented guy re the so called Art of Bonsai, however.....To create a Forest Planting he started with several (maybe 6 or 8) small Starter tree's placed randomly in a 24" ceramic pot and then added some non descript Greenery and Moss, it took him about 30 minutes and any Grade schooler could have accomplished the same...
I'm not trying to run down David, he has work and experience way above the average Bonsai Pretender Wannabe, he also was Gardener in charge of a very large prestigious West Coast Facility....
In the Article you reference he does the Analogy of creating a Bonsai Tree to a Famous Sonata….as tho the Composer of the Sonata is on the same page as the Gardener.....Pluuuuuleeeeeese....

 

[rockm]

Food for Thought... Walter Pall considers himself an Amature Professional designing away from Traditional Asian Bonsai towards Naturalistic looking small trees...

Jeez, yeah. People want to put their own mark on things. Doesn't mean the new term is "something completely different." And "Amateur Professional" is simply silly. It's like saying "Jumbo Shrimp" you can't be an amateur and a professional. YOU ARE ONE OR THE OTHER...

Mostly these are invented euphamisms for the word they're trying to replace. "Naturalistic looking small trees" is just a longer version of simply saying "bonsai" Since the meaning of "bonsai" in the west isn't directly translatable, the word itself conjures up a specific image for western users, which includes "naturalistic small trees." Putting "Traditional Asian" in front of bonsai implies some sort of familiarity with bonsai. The vast majority of people around the world will make none of these distinctions and multiplying the terminology only confuses the issue.

This kind of thing is making a distinction without any difference. The group of people who are able to hack through the multi-level meaning of "naturalistic looking small trees" BS is tiny and inconsequential. Forcing such stilted terms onto already established nouns borders on the Precious with a Capital "P" Precious in this case meaning "excessively refined," i.e. Affected...

A good read for those prone to thinking in "precious" new ways

What does 'living fully' mean? Welcome to the age of pseudo-profound nonsense

Inspirational quotes of dubious provenance are just one of the ways in which social media sells a warped vision of ‘living fully’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Adair M]

Food for Thought... Walter Pall considers himself an Amature Professional designing away from Traditional Asian Bonsai towards Naturalistic looking small trees...

So what?

I happen to know Daisaku Nomoto. He was Boon’s Senior when Boon was an apprentice in Japan. He is a certified Bonsai Master. He’s won Kokofu, Taiken/ten, and is on the Board of the Nippon Shohin Bonsai Association. He will tell you he is “an Amateur”, even though he makes his living in bonsai in Japan.

It doesn’t matter what you call yourself. “Master” status is conveyed by others.

And yes, I’d say Walter Pall is a Master. I disagree with some of his techniques and styling preferences, but he’s very good at what he does.

 

[rockm]

I think I've really struck a cord here with this OP...
Mayank, my fellow Michigander, I've taken class's with David DeGroot when he was here at University of Michigan Botanical Gardens thru Ann Arbor Bonsai Society, he is a really talented guy re the so called Art of Bonsai, however.....To create a Forest Planting he started with several (maybe 6 or 8) small Starter tree's placed randomly in a 24" ceramic pot and then added some non descript Greenery and Moss, it took him about 30 minutes and any Grade schooler could have accomplished the same...
I'm not trying to run down David, he has work and experience way above the average Bonsai Pretender Wannabe, he also was Gardener in charge of a very large prestigious West Coast Facility....
In the Article you reference he does the Analogy of creating a Bonsai Tree to a Famous Sonata….as tho the Composer of the Sonata is on the same page as the Gardener.....Pluuuuuleeeeeese....

Of course you're trying to run Dave Degroot down...envy is never a good look there B...Before you cast stones, you might want to take another look at your trees with that grade school eye...

 

[Bolero]

The proof of the pie is in the eating.

Masters of oil painting in Europe, had to sit a
test as apprentices to become Masters.

An ancient tradition, where the original painters.
way back in the past ran workshops and others
were so impressed by their work and called them - masters.

In North Amerrica the same is happening.

No need to discuss a normal aspect of life.

Oil painting or Ink painting or Floating world.

Does it catch your eye and enter your mind to satisfy your heart?
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony I resect your postings however I need to clarify one thing... with the exception of M Angelo almost all the Old Master's of Europe died as NoBodys and were only discovered as Masters of their particular style many years after leaving the planet for the other side....

 

[Bolero]

Of course you're trying to run Dave Degroot down...envy is never a good look there B...Before you cast stones, you might want to take another look at your trees with that grade school eye...

Rockm & Sockem.....unfortunately you have a real problem with Comprehending that which you read...& you seem to have a Mean Streak....

 

[leatherback]

Truth hurts?

 

[Djtommy]

When I think of a Master Artist I think of M:Angelo, DiVinci, David, Goya,,, etc...........
not some old guy who faithfully waters and prunes his old tree in a pot....

I had no clue all those painting artists were bonsai artists aswell.

 

[rockm]

Rockm & Sockem.....unfortunately you have a real problem with Comprehending that which you read...& you seem to have a Mean Streak....

As we say in the South when we're talking to pains in the ass--"Bless your heart" Bolero. Your passive aggressive attack on Mr. Degroot hasn't gone unnoticed, even if you wont' take any responsibility for it...

What part of "To create a Forest Planting he started with several (maybe 6 or 8) small Starter tree's placed randomly in a 24" ceramic pot and then added some non descript Greenery and Moss, it took him about 30 minutes and any Grade schooler could have accomplished the same..."
did I "misinterpret/see through"?
The sound of you grinding an axe comes through quite clearly despite the "I don't mean to run Dave down" BS...

 

[Bolero]

Of course you're trying to run Dave Degroot down...envy is never a good look there B...Before you cast stones, you might want to take another look at your trees with that grade school eye...

I have Entered and been judged with several of my Penjing and classed in the Top 10% among hundreds of Entrys, i am not in the habit of justifying my work however for your benefit I make this exception and BTW David ranked me 1st in his 2 day class...FWIW

 

[leatherback]

I have Entered and been judged with several of my Penjing and classed in the Top 10% among hundreds of Entrys, i am not in the habit of justifying my work however for your benefit I make this exception and BTW David ranked me 1st in his 2 day class...FWIW

So why dont you ever show us some.of those? All I see are starter plants in your care. Would love to these top works of arts, showing you are more than an old guy faithfully watering his trees.