Tell me why native silver maple sucks?

[MMJNICE]

That sure looks a lot like sugar maple. are the buds pointy in winter. Usually silver maple grows endlessly all season

That does look like a sugar maple now that you say that... I just snagged two saplings from my girlfriends yard yesterday... it's chilling in a shady spot and if it dies who cares I live under a massive sugar maple that just gave birth to a million seeds this summer I'll be pulling up saplings all next year I imagine. There is such a wide variety of leaf shapes with sugar maple silver maple and red maple that you almost need a DNA test to get A definitive answer. But seems like sugar maple have a more light brown twig color kinda like a field maple... and might I say I've been lusting after field maples ever since I Collected one that will probably die next year

 

[MMJNICE]

No reason except believe branches tend to grow upward like columnar tree. Hard to bring down without breaking(?) Generally ignore naysayers/work with tree you like.

Hummmm well I Little piece of wire can make a big difference..

imho It’s not about a tree type, leaf size, or stating and restating opinions and theory.

Its all about the hobbyist, their research, timing, continual practice, effective tactics and being open minded enough to experience the flow of each tree’s development….

…. and then understanding the evolving trade offs it will take to develop a tree(s) to achieve their maximum bonsai potential.

In other words, it’s about balancing a series of competing “goods”… the trade offs that result in the tree before you and the tree in the future.

Here’s an example of a young 1- 5 yoa Autumn Blaze forest composition. (Cuttings struck over the years to add on).

View attachment 503410

Somewhat mediocre perhaps? But a good example all the same…

So what trade offs were made to get here…?

….and what trade offs must to be made in the future to get to a place to make this composition ancient, gnarly and perhaps even dynamic?

Here’s two examples of the competing goods faced while developing this forest:

- The good that comes from pushing growth resulting in trunk girth and increased root mass (and big leaves )
vs
- The aesthetic good of keeping the leaves a reasonable size, resulting from pinch back, constraining foliar mass and minimal container size. (and less girth, root mass etc )

And…

- The good that comes from getting an ‘acceptable’ job done in the shortest time.
vs
- The good that comes from having the patience to stretch the time continuum and build the skills needed to truly emulate an ancient, gnarly tree(s).

The competing goods subtly shift over time, requiring different trade offs and experiences.

So perhaps a better question would be “What trade offs am I willing to make to get this to be a nice bonsai with smaller leaves?”

cheers
DSD sends

Man I'm loving that little forest!!!! And flat out because I love native stuff and because I think it's a cool planting first and foremost.. I would pay for something like that.. I swear to the man above that if Japanese people had are tree's from the beginning allllllllllllllllllll yall Japanese maple people would be growing silver maples hahahahaha... but for real they would...

 

[MMJNICE]

Its all about purpose and enjoyment. Silver maples remind me of my childhood - our street was lined with them... we had a big one in the front that my dad's car door would hit every day he got home from work before the street crews chopped it down. My parents still have a HUGE one in the back. I have two of them. Would I grow more? Sure if I found a nice thick one at this point.

Ive always seen this hobby as a way to connect with the natural world around me. Thats been my purpose since day 1. The "quality potential" is less important to me than the "enjoyment potential".

This one I'm really excited to work on.. so the trunk is about 2-1/2" maybe 25" in hight.. I'm keeping a Sacrifice branch low on the trunk to thicken the trunk and the only bad thing at this time is the Internote lengths and the massive amount of water it drinks...it going to be pretty Wide when I get to the point of trying to get really twiggy growth smh.. but I can't wait to see the root growth in the Spaghetti strainer I got it growing in right now. I've seen trident maples look worse at this stage of development... no lie and with bigger leaves.. or about the same size leaves 🫡..when I dig it up last spring it had maybe two small carrot worth root on either side of the trunk so I'm betting the roots will without a doubt look amazing.. and to be honest isn't the root base hands down the most important things.. silver maples have a natural shallow root base that makes really nice .... well surface roots..

 

[shohin_branches]

Special pictures just for you. I took out my ruler to compare the sizes of our leaves. I do think my silver maple might be a hybrid as it has some leaves that don't really have the look of silver maples unless it is a juvenile/mature foliage type of thing.

View attachment 503059
Picture here is one of my first flush leaves. The petiole measures 1/2 an inch long. This is without an ramification and heavily feeding. I am not claiming anything as it could just be a fluke or circumstantial, but it is one of several leaves that small. It gives me hope that I can make them that small through ramification in the future.

View attachment 503060

This is the size of the leaves on average currently outside of the much bigger apical leaves. Three inches long from the start of the petiole to tip and two inches wide.

This looks like a field maple, not a silver maple.

 

[Cajunrider]

I can't tell you that silver maple sucks. I have about 100 seedlings at the moment. If they suck, I guess it will be a hundred fold for me

 

[Kievnstavick]

This looks like a field maple, not a silver maple.

I used to think it was a Field maple before a majority of the leaves turned very distinctively Silver maple. Like I meantioned in my post, I believe this to be a hybrid due to the two leaf shapes.

Here is a picture of the same tree that shows both leaf shapes taken back in June.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Is the underside silver?

 

[MMJNICE]

I've one I've been playing with for four or five years but getting nowhere. I can't get a second flush after pruning. It just sets buds for next year. Bugs eat it like crazy. But... I keep trying.View attachment 503118View attachment 503119View attachment 503131

That's definitely a sugar maple.. I've collected about 4 this year off season of course but they are all under 10 years old so I doubt anyone will miss them

 

[MMJNICE]

Leaves of three to four inches are enormous by bonsai standards. Get your biggest leaves under two inches, and then you'll have a tree that's okay for bonsai. Reduce the petioles and internodes, and then it will be good for bonsai.

That's not an admonition against growing them for fun. I'm growing a sycamore for bonsai, just to see if it can be done. The end product will likely be over four feet tall. With sacrifice branches, it's presently over nine feet tall. The leaves reduce to about three inches, so the end product needs to be huge to keep them in proportion.

As a rule of thumb, I find that if leaves are bigger than the trunk caliper, they look too far out of proportion. Maybe you have a higher tolerance than I do for large leaves. I know of plenty on here who have much less tolerance than I for large leaves.

I've been growing sycamore trees as well. I had a handful of seedballs and thru one in a concrete planter outside my house and dam near 50% rooted. I have two I collected in one larger pot and two in the Tiniest pots you can buy at Walmart " about the half the size of a small pill Bottle" . The purpose was to experiment with how small I could get the leaves. The concrete planter has Probably twenty five trees in it and the largest leaves are probably 6 or 7 inches. The two in the large pot had leaves almost a foot across . But the two in the tiny Eddie betty pots had leaves that where about an inch to an inch and a half. Of course the growth rate of each section of trees We're drastically different but the leaves got super tiny when the roots where restricted so as long you find a happy medium of pot Size to tree growth small leaves look Plausible in my completely Scientific approach heheheh.. I have pictures to prove it but don't feel like searching through thousands of photos. They are still alive and I'm curious what they will do this coming spring

 

[MMJNICE]

Thanks!

Some awfully good points there @MaciekA.

Bonsai flow comes in many ways for me,
- interpreting growth patterns over time
- enjoying working with a tree to grow it towards a goal, vs forcing it. (Kind of like @BobbyLane ’s “listen to the tree idea”)
- testing a new (to me) technique and having success
- understanding the trade offs in development and being able to consciously make an informed decision.
- experimenting with just about anything there is time for….
- the state of mental flow that can come with working on a project… etc

In my first couple years I specifically started the Autumn Blaze maple forest, a Crabapple forest, and number of small trees to force myself to challenge some assumptions that were widely posted at the time. It has taken years for me to appreciate the flow of each. Similar in a ways to your Cottonwood.

It took a number of years to hone this perspective, so I felt kinda wonky posting these concepts on line to one and all.

On the other hand I learned an awful lot from other folks here like @Leo in N E Illinois @Brian Van Fleet, and also Aarin Packard at PMB, just to name a couple of the many folks who have helped me put this perspective into words.

So I felt a post might help others jumpstart their learning…. as my perspective of BonsaiNut as more of a collective educational bonsai platform vice a pure social one.



Not sure why.

Trees aren’t static, they can’t be stopped from growing….given the overarching goal is to keep the tree robust and healthy within one’s other goals.…trees are continually morphing while growing.

One will always have to redevelop one’s techniques and knowledge to match the tree’s level of refinement to keep it robust and healthy while accomplishing one’s aesthetic goals.

The trees evolve and the hobbyist has to evolve their knowledge, design skills and abilities over time to match this evolution.

There are trees in a high level of refinement at PMB, but each year they continue to have robust and healthy growth.… and each year the staff and we volunteers have to work hard to achieve the desired level of aesthetic design…which constantly evolves over time until the tree’s outgrow a particular aesthetic. Then it’s time for a major redesign… slowly evolving towards a more ancient aesthetic.

So no diminishing returns. A design can only be held static for a little while until the tree grows out of it, creating new demands of the practitioner

Hope that answers the question.

cheers
DSD sends

Dam that was good stuff right there... words to remember!

 

[Ininaatigoons]

Hold up... You gotta start a whole new thread if your going to talk a whole different species. If you can keep anything alive in one of those tiny pots your doing well. If you can keep anything for a few years your elite class. I know there are ways such as planting a tiny pot in a bigger pot or even a bunch in a sort of landscaped forest pot still in a tiny pot and only taking them out for the monthly root pruning or photo or show, but I haven't had the chance to try too often. Keishi or Shito Mame are impossible. That is the best way to see how small a leaf will get after training. Get some more pics of this project. Annually if possible and give us an update!

 

[Gaitano]

Ok I have three volunteers that I’ve been messing with for awhile now. I have them in my notes as silver maple. But I have silver and sugar in my neighborhood. I found a fall picture with a few leaves. Silver or sugar??

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Silver

 

[Bonsai Nut]

A couple of sugar versus silver maple pics to add to this conversation...

Note - there are at least three sugar maple sub-species in the US that present slightly different leaves, as well as several sugar maple cultivars including at least two "dwarfs" that I know of. I have no experience with them, at the moment, though I plan to in the future.

And for the record; I am not aware of anyone saying DON'T work with silver maple, but rather "silver maple is an advanced species due to large leaf size, and difficulty reducing leaves and internodes". Go crazy if you want. I would say something similar about trees with large compound leaves: sumac, walnut, hickory, etc. I used to say "it is almost impossible" to work with these species for bonsai... until Kimura made a sumac bonsai. Granted it was 5' tall, but he did it to show that it could be done.

Work with what nature gives you, and make the best tree you can given the constraints.

 

[Gaitano]

Silver it is! And when nature gives you something for free, why not give it a shot.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Silver it is! And when nature gives you something for free, why not give it a shot.

Silver maple the dead giveaway is the silver underside. When the wind blows my silver maples (in landscape) almost look white.

 

[Asymetrix]

Practitioners of bonsai need to stop trying to compare everything to Japanese baseline species in general. Must we discourage anything that isn't another trident or palmatum?

The issue present, as always - is that practicioners of bonsai in the United States are just mimicking traditional practices with traditional Asian species, rather than trying to develop a real American deciduous aesthetic.

If you are trying to make A. Saccharinum look like a world class A. Palmatum than indeed failure is imminent.

All we can do is make it the best possible representation of A. Saccharinum as a bonsai subject.

Leaf size and internode size are obviously important in creating an idealized image. Let's not forget that all these aesthetics are subjective.

A last observation that I feel is constantly overlooked is that not all trees developed for bonsai are displayed while in leaf.

 

[Ininaatigoons]

Practitioners of bonsai need to stop trying to compare everything to Japanese baseline species in general. Must we discourage anything that isn't another trident or palmatum?

The issue present, as always - is that practicioners of bonsai in the United States are just mimicking traditional practices with traditional Asian species, rather than trying to develop a real American deciduous aesthetic.

If you are trying to make A. Saccharinum look like a world class A. Palmatum than indeed failure is imminent.

All we can do is make it the best possible representation of A. Saccharinum as a bonsai subject.

Leaf size and internode size are obviously important in creating an idealized image. Let's not forget that all these aesthetics are subjective.

A last observation that I feel is constantly overlooked is that not all trees developed for bonsai are displayed while

All good points.
- we should not discourage native species over time tested and proven true species. At some point all species were pioneered. It does take a daring, personality to be an explorer.
- It is through Mimicking that one learns and it is after some time that we may develop a concensus as to what could be considered Styalictically Identifiable American Potted Arboriculture. Who knows how long it took China to develop potted trees as an art, or how long after introduction it took Japan to develop Bonsai. I was just watching Peter Chan YouTube as he traveled S.E. Asia and was in awe and wonderment as I took in all those trees. He traveled India also and the same thing... Awesome! I did notice they had success with local trees, but also used were popular trees noted world wide for ease in development of bonsai.
-Acer Saccharinum is noted as a fast growing (course), but weak short lived tree. I also am trying (with a couple) to see what could happen with them. To me they just don't have the leaf interest of palmatum or even Rubrum. There are a few other native acer that may be well suited for potting and pruning. I have a Saccharum and a Sweet Shadow that I'll see what can happen as well.
-Leaf size and internode distance can be changed throughout the development of a tree to some extent, just some are better than others
- I have yet to see what a mature Saccharinum will bring to the winter interest scene, but hopefully someday we can get there

---

 

[MMJNICE]

Hold up... You gotta start a whole new thread if your going to talk a whole different species. If you can keep anything alive in one of those tiny pots your doing well. If you can keep anything for a few years your elite class. I know there are ways such as planting a tiny pot in a bigger pot or even a bunch in a sort of landscaped forest pot still in a tiny pot and only taking them out for the monthly root pruning or photo or show, but I haven't had the chance to try too often. Keishi or Shito Mame are impossible. That is the best way to see how small a leaf will get after training. Get some more pics of this project. Annually if possible and give us an update!

I have a crap apple cascade that started off in a one inch pot for two whole growing seasons but stalled on the third growing season in late spring so I had to move it into a two inch pot and it exploded smh.. the leaves tripled in size but it aslo grew branches that made a complex design in the long run so whatever.. I'm re-potting most of my maples so root restriction isn't going to happen this year unfortunately. I do have a couple for backup in my silver maple clump should one die... so a may try with one of those.

 

[MMJNICE]

Ok I have three volunteers that I’ve been messing with for awhile now. I have them in my notes as silver maple. But I have silver and sugar in my neighborhood. I found a fall picture with a few leaves. Silver or sugar??


View attachment 523075View attachment 523076

Definitely silver maple on the two in pots the one on the concrete planter Looks like a red maple without the leaves but I don't have anything that has ever age on it to start having flanking bark of that.silvery color to the bark. Young sugar maple bark looks more brown then silver or red maple younger trees..