Stone Selection for my trident maple ROR | Root over Rock

[raffaelbaer]

Hey Guys,

For my upcoming Trident Root over Rock composition, I picked up a couple Rocks from a Aquatic Shop here in Germany, the three candidates Ive choosen are the best out of the ones I bought.

Here they are:



And a few close ups with basic drawings of where I would position the young sapling:



After reading thorugh @Brian Van Fleet 's

'ROR Trident project'​

Link to the thread


I was amazed by the style of his finished tree, and the speed of the development:



I went on and searched some more inspiration on what I wanted my finished composition in 10-15 Years to look like, here are a few pics:



What would you pic as youre desired rock for the specific style I've choosen?
After you've voted, maybe also shortly explain, why you picked this option over the others!

Also, does anybody have experience with Dragon Stone "Ohko" Stones in winter?
They seem very porus and I would imagine that if rain gets trapped inside these cracks and crevices, then freezes over winter It would break the rock.

One last thing, On the Dragon Stone I was planing on planting the tree inside the crater, will this cause any problems further down the road, or will the tree just fuse with the rock and at some point 'swallow it'?

Greetings From Munich

Raffael

 

[Jrmcmich]

I have not done ROR myself so don’t have personal experience but it seems rocks 1 & 2 will work best since they have nice grooves for roots to go into. On number 2 I wonder If it was rotated 90 degrees for roots to go into the grooves? If you look at @Shibui or @SeanS they have some nice ROR examples and can see the foil technique used. I a, hoping to start some in spring and have been collecting rocks.

 

[raffaelbaer]

I have not done ROR myself so don’t have personal experience but it seems rocks 1 & 2 will work best since they have nice grooves for roots to go into. On number 2 I wonder If it was rotated 90 degrees for roots to go into the grooves? If you look at @Shibui or @SeanS they have some nice ROR examples and can see the foil technique used. I a, hoping to start some in spring and have been collecting rocks.

appreaciate your reply, checked out a few threads of the 2 members you metioned! Good resource

 

[SeanS]

Keep in mind a tree growing on a rock doesn’t have to grow roots vertical downwards like it would like to do in the ground. A rock with horizontal crevices and cracks can be be used to train the roots in those directions/planes to create interest

 

[Dabbler]

That third stone is rather amazing to me!

 

[leatherback]

I would go for a dark one (as trident roots are lightly colored) and one with loads of fissures. To none of the three I would say.. (Keep in mind.. You start a 15 year project. Better get the best materials and keep looking untill you have THE rock.

ANy other thoughts I might have...:

Got half an hour?

 

[raffaelbaer]

Keep in mind a tree growing on a rock doesn’t have to grow roots vertical downwards like it would like to do in the ground. A rock with horizontal crevices and cracks can be be used to train the roots in those directions/planes to create interest

View attachment 562996

Cool idea, hadn't thought about that!

 

[raffaelbaer]

I would go for a dark one (as trident roots are lightly colored) and one with loads of fissures. To none of the three I would say.. (Keep in mind.. You start a 15 year project. Better get the best materials and keep looking untill you have THE rock.

ANy other thoughts I might have...:

Got half an hour?

Actually I already watched all of these videos . That's how I came onto Seiryu rocks. Never the less good input (going on search for a darker rock). Maybe on my next trip to National Park Triglav in Slovenia I can find some nice dark ones, last time I spotted so many....

 

[Mikea454]

my immediate impression of the choices

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Plus one for choosing a dark colored rock, the roots will be invisible on a light colored stone

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I kinda saw the same as Sean..

 

[raffaelbaer]

I kinda saw the same as Sean..
View attachment 563045

Liking the Idea more and more!

 

[johng]

I would not use Dragon stone! It is not stable enough long term to use in this application. I bought some pieces about 5 years ago for an aquarium. Never used them… put them outside with my other stones…nothing but rained on since and it’s just a pile of little pieces now. Also realize that the middle stone, Seiryu, will raise the Ph in your pot. Some trees may like this but others may not.

 

[johng]

My advice is to plant as many as you can. In spite of our best efforts they rarely if ever turn out as planned…by starting several you will increase your chances of having something that pleases you down the road… creating quality bonsai material is always a numbers game.

 

[Shibui]

One last thing, On the Dragon Stone I was planing on planting the tree inside the crater, will this cause any problems further down the road, or will the tree just fuse with the rock and at some point 'swallow it'?

All trees continue to thicken and so do the roots. All root over rock will eventually swallow the entire rock. Some do it quicker and others may take decades but it will eventually happen. The trick is to design so that it doesn't happen too quick. Limit the number of roots running down the rock and make sure there's some spaces between the roots so the spaces don't disappear too quick.
If the 'crater' is a feature of that rock then plant the tree somewhere else. There appears to be some natural ledges on the left side that would probably suit and that will keep the crater visible.
Some rocks disintegrate quickly in the weather, even if freezing is only moderate and occasional like here. I do not know Dragon rock so not sure of it's durable but it appears @johng has experience.
Assuming Seiryu is a form of limestone the potential pH increase should be minimal. It could be an issue for azalea but will not worry trident maple.

I prefer to see ROR planted somewhere on the side of the rock rather than right at the top. I also prefer to have the tree sitting in a natural ledge or hollow. Why would a tree germinate and grow right on the exposed top?
I also prefer a rock with some character and contours rather than a straight sided block or oval. I guess we are trying to express a cliff or mountain so weathered ledges and gullies make the rock look more natural. I would pass on the 3rd rock for ROR.

I also spotted that natural channel in the 2nd rock. My initial thought was to plant on the left side and let the roots follow that crevice but that would mean roots running uphill - not natural. @SeanS and @Brian Van Fleet have both picked a natural planting location and the trunk direction echoes the rock direction which is also good design. I think I'd also try to plant there.

I would go for a dark one (as trident roots are lightly colored) and one with loads of fissures. To none of the three I would say.. (Keep in mind.. You start a 15 year project. Better get the best materials and keep looking untill you have THE rock.

ROR introduces a number of variables which multiplies the difficulty of getting a good result. With a single trunk bonsai we only need to grow a nice trunk with branches in the right places. With ROR we need the good trunk with branches in the right places PLUS roots clinging close to the rock, root movement and flow attractive, trunk direction matches rock direction and weight. Getting a good result is not as easy as it may seem. I'd always start several with the view of gradually culling those that don't have enough desirable traits.
In the same vein, not every seedling will match any rock. When I start ROR plantings I have plenty of seedlings on hand so I can find the best match to the planting position and where I want the roots to run. I'll usually start with maybe 10 rocks and 20-30 seedlings in order to get some good starting combinations. Even if you only have 1 or 2 rocks I'd still start with up to 20 seedlings in order to find the right trunk/root combination to fit the rock.

 

[raffaelbaer]

I would not use Dragon stone! It is not stable enough long term to use in this application. I bought some pieces about 5 years ago for an aquarium. Never used them… put them outside with my other stones…nothing but rained on since and it’s just a pile of little pieces now. Also realize that the middle stone, Seiryu, will raise the Ph in your pot. Some trees may like this but others may not.

Great point on the Dragon stone, I guess I will experiment with it myself and leaf it out a few seasons and check the durability, but as you described, thats exactly what I thought would happen to them. With Seiryu I hadnt had problem to much, I planted a few plants with these, and didnt have any Problems! Thanks for the great Input btw!

 

[raffaelbaer]

I also spotted that natural channel in the 2nd rock. My initial thought was to plant on the left side and let the roots follow that crevice but that would mean roots running uphill - not natural. @SeanS and @Brian Van Fleet have both picked a natural planting location and the trunk direction echoes the rock direction which is also good design. I think I'd also try to plant there.

For me the black Rocks is also out, even Though I like the dark look of it, it just doesnt have enough Interesting features and Tapering.

Really like the Idea of them both!

 

[raffaelbaer]

In the same vein, not every seedling will match any rock. When I start ROR plantings I have plenty of seedlings on hand so I can find the best match to the planting position and where I want the roots to run. I'll usually start with maybe 10 rocks and 20-30 seedlings in order to get some good starting combinations. Even if you only have 1 or 2 rocks I'd still start with up to 20 seedlings in order to find the right trunk/root combination to fit the rock.

Thats actually a really good Idea!

 

[Shibui]

Thats actually a really good Idea!

That's experience from around 20 years of starting and developing hundreds of ROR trident maples.

 

[raffaelbaer]

That's experience from around 20 years of starting and developing hundreds of ROR trident maples.

awesome, then I've got an expert on hand