RichKid
Shohin
Pulled some of my trees to check the roots and they don't seem to be in need of repotting now. Would it be ok to wait till the fall to repot as they may need it by then?
Spring vs Fall repotting
- Thread starter RichKid
- Start date
fourteener
Omono
Your trees should be wired into your pots and you shouldn't be able to take them out until you really need to. Most trees should be repotted every 3-5 years depending on species. If your tree didn't need to be repotted this spring, it won't need it this fall either. What kind of tree is it?
edprocoat
Masterpiece
Richkid, I see you are in Pa. your trees, unless they are tropicals grown inside, will not get any root growth during the winter. This summer they will put out root growth and may indeed need repotted this fall once dormant, but in reality they will practically shut down in the fall so you can wait until next spring before bud break to repot. I never wire trees with a decent root system into a pot, unless its a very shallow pot or the tree is really top heavy.
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Stan Kengai
Omono
Fall is probably the best time to repot deciduous trees that are still in development, if you can keep the new roots from freezing.
RichKid
Shohin
The two trees are a crepe myrtle and a burning bush. The way they're wired is so if I squeeze the butterfly together on the bottom I can easily slide the whole thing out through the bottom hole and lift the tree. The trees aren't root bound but I used some turface in my mix and it seems to be beginning to break down (like it may turn to mush/ lots of fines) but I don't have a mix ready or the time right now, as the buds are already swelling and I'm swamped with work, and I don't know if I should leave them in this mix for another winter. This is only my second season of actual practice of the craft. So I'm open to all experienced advice. Thanks
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Uh uh. Roots are doing a lot of growing during the winter -- at least until the pots freeze solid and stay that way.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
kirk@localbonsai.com
Mame
I do prefer Spring. The last time I re potted in Oct, it was a large Japanese lace-leaf, I had quite a bit of die-back the next growing season - i'd say just be patient and let them fill the pot a bit more.
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edprocoat
Masterpiece
Really ? So you are saying dormant trees grow roots in the winter even though there are studies that say the opposite! http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_do_tree_roots_do_in_winter/ I have 2 questions for you, 1. How would you describe dormancy? 2. What do you base your view on, have you watched them grow, seen a different study or just a hunch? BTW, generally when a "pots freeze solid" the roots die as they are a lot less cold hardy, you see my friend they are underground in nature, that is why we set them on the ground and mulch them in. You really should think before you post ....
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Ed,
Studies are not always accurate. Be it roots, soil sizes, etc.
Real life showed me they grow roots during winter.
BTW, Most landscapers and arborist here plant during fall for that reason.
Studies are not always accurate. Be it roots, soil sizes, etc.
Real life showed me they grow roots during winter.
BTW, Most landscapers and arborist here plant during fall for that reason.
edprocoat
Masterpiece
Ed,
Studies are not always accurate. Be it roots, soil sizes, etc.
Real life showed me they grow roots during winter.
Dario, multiple studies and overall consensus determines that a dormant tree does not grow roots. As for your trees that "showed me they grow roots during winter." you do realize that you are in Texas with no real winter and the OP lives in PA. with real hard winters ? There is a major difference in weather zones, where you get cold snaps he has winter set in for months and trees going fully dormant. This guy is new in this and asking for advice, its better not to give half-assed advice or an unsubstantiated opinion which may lead to killing his tree just to raise a post count.
This is the same reason that many tree species that require a dormancy period will wither away and slowly die in your area (Texas), the same reason why most fruit trees he could grow and produce fruits on will not set fruits in your area at all becase they require cold periods to be able to set fruits. Gala Apple trees for example require between 600-800 continuous chill hours below 35 degrees to be able to set fruit. Thats aint happening in your area as far as I know. This happens every winter in Pennsylvania.
Oh and another thing, Fall is not winter my friend, and the reason most landscapers plant in the fall is that plants slow down preparing for their winter rest and are less likely to suffer setback from planting, need less water and are less prone to harm from drying out as they would if planted in the heat of summer.
BTW, an Arborist also commonly known as a tree surgeon generally study and diagnose trees and are not landscapers or lawn and garden men. Arborists go to college to first become qualified then they have to be Certified, then they choose there path as either a Municipal Specialist, Utility Specialist or Board Certified Master Arborist (BCMA). Not the guys who plants shrubery in your neighbors yard.
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Ed,
You are right that I do not know PA weather...just TX weather. So I will qualify that even D-trees grow and develop roots during winter here. I know several people here who live further north than me who experiences the same. JKL is one (saw/read his post about it last year or so) he wasn't making it up.
About arborists, I know who and what they are. Where I work, they have a big say as to when trees are planted and they recommend (more like order) either spring or fall planting only. An arborist actually explained this (root growth during winter) to me years before I did bonsai.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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A few things need to be noted:
1) The root zone of cold hardy temperate trees can certainly "freeze solid" with no ill effects. Every tree I own from pines to maples to junipers and azaleas will experience temperatures well below freezing sitting on the benches and the soil will freeze. Yes, the roots are significantly less cold hardy then the canopy and needs protection from extreme cold, but this isn't an issue until temps are approaching 20 F or lower.
2) The vast majority of temperate trees and perennials do the vast majority of their annual root growth in fall and early winter. Spring and summer months are dedicated, generally, to canopy growth. The canopy produces energy which fuels the root growth later in the season. I believe it was B'nut member Daygan who worded it so nicely by saying that the canopy of temperate trees truly go dormant, but the roots become quiescent, meaning they are active throughout the year when the environment is favorable. For roots, in general, that means the soil temps must be at or above 40 F. I personally have seen both potted trees and hostas put on a significant amount of root growth during the winter. These plants were in zone 6 MA and would be wintered on the floor of my garage with the pots mulched, after they had experienced at least a few hard freezes...the canopy was clearly dormant at this point. The mulch would freeze by late December then thaw in late March, which was my cue to take them out of storage...some of the trees would have 6 inches worth of thick roots coming out of the drainage holes.
3) Early fall is THE best time to transplant trees, shrubs and perennials in the landscape, as a rule. The soil is warm but the air temps are cool, so no heat stress, and roots are actively growing at this time of year. For potted trees, this is a less ideal time because, as mentioned earlier, potted root systems are much more susceptible to temperature changes then if planted in the ground.
1) The root zone of cold hardy temperate trees can certainly "freeze solid" with no ill effects. Every tree I own from pines to maples to junipers and azaleas will experience temperatures well below freezing sitting on the benches and the soil will freeze. Yes, the roots are significantly less cold hardy then the canopy and needs protection from extreme cold, but this isn't an issue until temps are approaching 20 F or lower.
2) The vast majority of temperate trees and perennials do the vast majority of their annual root growth in fall and early winter. Spring and summer months are dedicated, generally, to canopy growth. The canopy produces energy which fuels the root growth later in the season. I believe it was B'nut member Daygan who worded it so nicely by saying that the canopy of temperate trees truly go dormant, but the roots become quiescent, meaning they are active throughout the year when the environment is favorable. For roots, in general, that means the soil temps must be at or above 40 F. I personally have seen both potted trees and hostas put on a significant amount of root growth during the winter. These plants were in zone 6 MA and would be wintered on the floor of my garage with the pots mulched, after they had experienced at least a few hard freezes...the canopy was clearly dormant at this point. The mulch would freeze by late December then thaw in late March, which was my cue to take them out of storage...some of the trees would have 6 inches worth of thick roots coming out of the drainage holes.
3) Early fall is THE best time to transplant trees, shrubs and perennials in the landscape, as a rule. The soil is warm but the air temps are cool, so no heat stress, and roots are actively growing at this time of year. For potted trees, this is a less ideal time because, as mentioned earlier, potted root systems are much more susceptible to temperature changes then if planted in the ground.
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Ed,
I can raise post count by saying "wow, I agree" so much faster. No need for me to compose paragraphs and "risk" my neck every time I get contradictory or do not agree or simply offering my thought or what I do.
For the record, I requested NUMEROUS times for my post count to be hidden because LOTS of people seem to have an issue with it...BUT nothing was done about it. Petty but true that some seem to get intimidated by it. Every month this past 2 years it has caused me some sort of attack in one form or another. The good thing is it is getting less now, but still surfaces now and then.
As I post so much...I also PM a lot, I could have posted those instead to raise my post count.
I share (probably over enthusiastically) w/o any regard to post count.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
If your worried about the substrate breaking down slip pot them into some large well draining containers like colanders without disturbing the present substrate as much as possible. Line the containers with something like Dry Stall. Over the next few months the fines should rinse out... I suspect your plants are still pretty sleepy with no leaf yet and that will work well and quickly for you.
Grimmy
Dormancy
My views and what I understand about dormancy have changed the last few years. I read or hear stuff and then I observe with a new eye and I confirm.
During a conversation with Dave Degroot about what will grow for him and the actual temperature patterns he has at the Weyerhaeuser, several interesting things were impressed upon me. We discussed how the few weeks of fridgid weather they get there would induce dormancy in northern species that are dependent upon this (like larch). He noted that once dormant, sustained below 50 degree weather would maintain dormancy. We talked about the varying depths of dormancy and how it has been studied.
Also an article talking about dormancy at Crataegus has gotten me looking at things differently(P.P. Pirone).
Dormancy reaction is different from species to species, so I watch this. Dormancy reaction to day length is hard form me to see. What I have noted is the sustained 50 degree mark make really seems important to the start of fall dormancy. Dormancy and over-winter heath is definitely affected by health--fall fertilization makes a big difference. Pruning timing does too.
Dormancy seems to start in stages top-trunk-root. A few weeks of warm weather in the 60's after a long cool fall in the 50's can rewake the roots but not the tops without problems. I see root activity after branches have shed leaves. All of my trees freeze completely while in winter storage. Trees root balls freeze solid. My storage never really gets colder than 10F--usually 20F
Spring awakening happens way different than fall dormancy. Suppression of light seems to withhold spring wakening.
This year I read about the absolute temperature that result in overcoming a zone 3 hardy plants ability to keep cells from dying, minus 40 seems the cut off. This past winter it dipped into that zone and I am seeing a lot of brown branches in my landscape and in a few boxed trees I overwinter out side and was not able to fully cover in snow.
My views and what I understand about dormancy have changed the last few years. I read or hear stuff and then I observe with a new eye and I confirm.
During a conversation with Dave Degroot about what will grow for him and the actual temperature patterns he has at the Weyerhaeuser, several interesting things were impressed upon me. We discussed how the few weeks of fridgid weather they get there would induce dormancy in northern species that are dependent upon this (like larch). He noted that once dormant, sustained below 50 degree weather would maintain dormancy. We talked about the varying depths of dormancy and how it has been studied.
Also an article talking about dormancy at Crataegus has gotten me looking at things differently(P.P. Pirone).
Dormancy reaction is different from species to species, so I watch this. Dormancy reaction to day length is hard form me to see. What I have noted is the sustained 50 degree mark make really seems important to the start of fall dormancy. Dormancy and over-winter heath is definitely affected by health--fall fertilization makes a big difference. Pruning timing does too.
Dormancy seems to start in stages top-trunk-root. A few weeks of warm weather in the 60's after a long cool fall in the 50's can rewake the roots but not the tops without problems. I see root activity after branches have shed leaves. All of my trees freeze completely while in winter storage. Trees root balls freeze solid. My storage never really gets colder than 10F--usually 20F
Spring awakening happens way different than fall dormancy. Suppression of light seems to withhold spring wakening.
This year I read about the absolute temperature that result in overcoming a zone 3 hardy plants ability to keep cells from dying, minus 40 seems the cut off. This past winter it dipped into that zone and I am seeing a lot of brown branches in my landscape and in a few boxed trees I overwinter out side and was not able to fully cover in snow.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I'd like to add some observation here in Austin.
I collected several cedar elm and leave them outside year round. Next to my yard are several big ground cedar elms. They basically are in same light/temperature setting but noticed that the potted trees wake up much earlier than the ground trees. I expect the reverse since ground is warmer so I am totally surprised. This is the 3rd year I observed this btw. The ones I just collected also re-sprouted much sooner than the ground trees during my very first year. I thought it was a fluke because of the root disturbance and pruning. Well same trees did the same thing 2 years after.
I'd be interested to hear input (explanation, theory, etc.) about this.
Thanks!
I collected several cedar elm and leave them outside year round. Next to my yard are several big ground cedar elms. They basically are in same light/temperature setting but noticed that the potted trees wake up much earlier than the ground trees. I expect the reverse since ground is warmer so I am totally surprised. This is the 3rd year I observed this btw. The ones I just collected also re-sprouted much sooner than the ground trees during my very first year. I thought it was a fluke because of the root disturbance and pruning. Well same trees did the same thing 2 years after.
I'd be interested to hear input (explanation, theory, etc.) about this.
Thanks!
fourteener
Omono
I'd like to add some observation here in Austin.
I collected several cedar elm and leave them outside year round. Next to my yard are several big ground cedar elms. They basically are in same light/temperature setting but noticed that the potted trees wake up much earlier than the ground trees. I expect the reverse since ground is warmer so I am totally surprised. This is the 3rd year I observed this btw. The ones I just collected also re-sprouted much sooner than the ground trees during my very first year. I thought it was a fluke because of the root disturbance and pruning. Well same trees did the same thing 2 years after.
I'd be interested to hear input (explanation, theory, etc.) about this.
Thanks!
The pots being shallow and dark colored(usually) means the roots heat up faster. The soil temperature doesn't rise as fast in the ground. My guess is that breaking dormancy for a tree has to do with soil temp.
I used to put my trees out in the sun in the spring thinking this was a good idea. Problem was they started to bloom and frost was still a possible problem. Now I keep my trees in the shade as long as possible in the spring. When the threat of frost is limited, I will start putting them out in full sun(especially deciduous tree and larch).
edprocoat
Masterpiece
You guys are missing the whole point, we are talking about BONSAI, trees in shallow pots with fine roots. Trees in nature grow deeper roots as well as fine feeder roots and whenever the warmth of the ground allows they replace damaged upper roots this is how many conifers get water to their foliage during winter, and trees regularly lose their upper fine feeder roots when the ground freezes. Things such as snow cover can hold the earths heat in the soil and they regrow, this readiness to grow is called a quiescent state. Trees in shallow containers with fine roots systems, Bonsai ! with no large tap roots or deep protected root systems can die from frozen roots. Think of it this way, if you cut off all your fine roots from your tree what would happen. I lost 8 trees to a freeze in the first week of October, it was 18 degrees the roots were wet as it had rained the whole night before and until noon that day. The temps fell fast and the water laden fine roots froze and literally expanded splitting and seperating the roots. I also lost several pots that day. Now you can keep your trees however you like, you can listen to that bullshit about trees not growing roots during the summer ??? if you are so stupid or never had a tree put roots through your bottom screen in Jul-Aug but if you want to know the truth northern trees go dormant, shallow root growth stops until warmth allows growth and shallow roots die when frozen. Look it up, ask any nursery man why they mulch in their trees which happen to be in the ground, warmth and moisture my friend.
BTW Poink, don't flatter yourself by saying "I can raise post count by saying "wow, I agree" so much faster. No need for me to compose paragraphs and "risk" my neck every time I get contradictory" your whole fricking post was " I agree "
I think if anyone gives advice they should take into consideration the local of the one who asks for it. That is the reason I mentioned he was in Pa. and you in Texas. I dont give a shit about your post count, it was only mentioned as I could not understand why else you would post an opinion on something you clearly have no idea about "You are right that I do not know PA weather...just TX weather." I live in Ohio and Florida so I have a bit of knowledge about zones 5b to 9 .
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BTW Poink, don't flatter yourself by saying "I can raise post count by saying "wow, I agree" so much faster. No need for me to compose paragraphs and "risk" my neck every time I get contradictory" your whole fricking post was " I agree "
I think if anyone gives advice they should take into consideration the local of the one who asks for it. That is the reason I mentioned he was in Pa. and you in Texas. I dont give a shit about your post count, it was only mentioned as I could not understand why else you would post an opinion on something you clearly have no idea about "You are right that I do not know PA weather...just TX weather." I live in Ohio and Florida so I have a bit of knowledge about zones 5b to 9 .
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kirk@localbonsai.com
Mame
i still say spring repotting is best 
