Soil Recipie?

[HotAction]

I've been using the Espoma soil perfector(which is the mole stuff--expanded slate) cause I cant get haydite here.
For stuff In Bonsai pots I use North Country Soil(by Bill Jones in upstate NY)--a good basic bonsai mix sold by the nurseries around here. I am going to experiment with a 50/50 Basic soil/akadama mix that Jim Doyle at Natures Way has had great success with.

I've talked with Bill, and I believe he uses haydite in his mix. I saw his mix, and it looks to be the real deal for this part of the country.

-Dave

 

[Rick Moquin]

If you live in an area that gets frost, coconut husk is an extremely bad soil ingredient. It turns to a slimy mushy mess after it thaws from its first freeze. That slimy slush will hold alot of water, which will rot roots. Don't use it. Don't even think of using it, if you get freezes.

... this has been brought up many times in the past. Coco Peat or husks have no business in bonsai soil, especially for the outdoor variety. For tropical it is very suitable under certain conditions.

For shohinkid.

Whilst over watering will not lead to root rot perse, improper oxygenation of the roots, caused by soil collapse or improper drainage will. I believe in this case that a "slimy mushy mess" qualifies in both cases.

 

[pauldogx]

I've talked with Bill, and I believe he uses haydite in his mix. I saw his mix, and it looks to be the real deal for this part of the country.

-Dave

Yes--Bill uses haydite. He has a source for it by him. And Yes it is the "real deal" around here. Its what all the Bonsai nurseries sell. It's great stuff. I only fool around with mixing soil for my stuff in training containers.

 

[Hisaoka]

With the diotomacious earth, here are my results so far with 100% diotomacious earth:

Well so far, I've had my Hokkaido Elms in it for about 4 months, and they love it. Grew new roots really fast and lots of new growth.

My lilac Didn't do so hot. It died... The branches underneath are still green though, maybe it will revive?

All 3 of my boxwoods are thriving, 2 Kingswood and 1 variegated dwarf something...They are growing like crazy.

Azalea- these prefer a mixed soil. The best I found, is mix half with a cactus mix or peat mix, and half diotomacious.

Hinoki Cypress- So far so good, it's only been a week...

Maples- too early to tell.. transplanted a sapling and it lost all it's leaves. Could just be transplant shock. Maybe it will sprout new ones??

I'll keep you updated...

 

[rockm]

Diatomaceous earth is not a really good soil for bonsai. The proof you offer with the elms probably would have happened in just about anything--elms grow vigorously--same for boxwood... Four months is not long enough to prove the soil is good.. Four years with good growth, no soil collapse, retained drainage capabilities and thriving plants would be a little more convincing.

You have to learn patience. Transplanting maples now is exactly the wrong time to do it. Lost leaves indicate you probably removed a great deal of roots and crippled it. It may come back, but with winter approaching, you will have to provide adequate shelter (and no, you can't keep it inside).

Hinoki cypress, like alot of conifers, take a long time to show stress and mishandling. A week is not long enough to tell if the tree is OK. Next month and next spring will tell more...

 

[Mortalis]

I have tried diatomatious earth with ficus. When it drys as much as ficus needs to dry out it appears that it starts to desiccate the roots drying them out. I don't know why it does that but it does. Just touching the stuff you can feel it pull the moisture out of your fingers when its dry.

 

[TheSteve]

With the diotomacious earth, here are my results so far with 100% diotomacious earth:

Well so far, I've had my Hokkaido Elms in it for about 4 months, and they love it. Grew new roots really fast and lots of new growth.


Hinoki Cypress- So far so good, it's only been a week...

Maples- too early to tell.. transplanted a sapling and it lost all it's leaves. Could just be transplant shock. Maybe it will sprout new ones??

I'll keep you updated...

1) I'm curious to know how you know your elm has so many roots after four months. I hope you haven't been messing around with it,
2) Where are you that you're repotting right now?

 

[Klytus]

I would add a little Kanuma.

 

[Hisaoka]

1) I'm curious to know how you know your elm has so many roots after four months. I hope you haven't been messing around with it,
2) Where are you that you're repotting right now?

How do you mess around with it?? Like you mean genetically modifying it in my secret underground lab?

I've been keeping them moist and never allowing them to dry out. I transplanted them 4 months ago, trimmed the roots like the bonsai book said to and planted them in pre-moistened diotomacious earth. I used Dyna Gro K-L-N to minimize transplanting stress during re-potting. I also have superthrive, but only use it when my plants need it, not on a regular basis.

I live in Eugene Oregon.

 

[Hisaoka]

Diatomaceous earth is not a really good soil for bonsai. The proof you offer with the elms probably would have happened in just about anything--elms grow vigorously--same for boxwood... Four months is not long enough to prove the soil is good.. Four years with good growth, no soil collapse, retained drainage capabilities and thriving plants would be a little more convincing.

You have to learn patience. Transplanting maples now is exactly the wrong time to do it. Lost leaves indicate you probably removed a great deal of roots and crippled it. It may come back, but with winter approaching, you will have to provide adequate shelter (and no, you can't keep it inside).

Hinoki cypress, like alot of conifers, take a long time to show stress and mishandling. A week is not long enough to tell if the tree is OK. Next month and next spring will tell more...

Well, the maple sapling was just growing in my yard from the neighbor's tree, and thought I'd try it in the soil. It wasn't anything important, if I left it, it would have been mowed anyway.... I also have a greenhouse for overwintering. I don't have any bonsai in the house. Other houseplants, yes, but not bonsai. They have a special place in the yard. Made a bonsai bench with exactly half sun exposure and will make another one with full sun.

Diotomacious earth I heard (and researched) is better than akadamia. It doesn't break down like akadamia and has the same water holding properties. Plants that can handle pure akadamia should be able to handle DE. I'm also testing mixes with it as well. With peat, hummus, and castings.

Also, Elms are vigorous yes, but Hokkaido Elms are a little more touchy. I've read a lot of horror stories about them and will do my best to keep them alive. Also, our winters here are pretty mild, never below 25 usually. I rooted a ton of cuttings from the Hokkaido Elm, so I'm wanting to try different soils and see what works the best. ( right now, the cuttings are rooting in a sandy tree & shrub soil- When they are much older, I will transfer them to what the adult plants are in. 5+ years) At this point, I'm open to anything and learning as much as I can. I like the Hokkaido elms the best and might try and stick with those. I also want to try seiju elms too.

I also never let my DE dry out completely. Because it is fast draining, from what I read, it's hard to over water. I guess not so good for plants that like to dry between watering...?

 

[Rick Moquin]

Diotomacious earth I heard (and researched) is better than akadamia. It doesn't break down like akadamia and has the same water holding properties.

... may I be so bold to suggest you need to add more depth to your research in the future.

 

[Mortalis]

I also never let my DE dry out completely. Because it is fast draining, from what I read, it's hard to over water. I guess not so good for plants that like to dry between watering...?

I have to admit that I let the Diatomatious earth dry out completely. I have been letting my ficus get bone dry. While this works in my Lava rock and bark mix that is when it seems the DE dries up the roots.

 

[Hisaoka]

... may I be so bold to suggest you need to add more depth to your research in the future.

Of course I do...I'm just a beginner...I'm just posting my results thus far. (it's only been 4 months) I'm kinda just experimenting here. My limited research is by no means completed. If you have had experience with using DE as a soil, then please let me know what you found out about it. That's why I'm posting on these boards to try things and to learn and share my findings. All I know is that some other club swears by the stuff, (they mentioned they been using it for only about 3 years) it's cheaper, so I thought I'd give it a try. Then I found that a lot of people in the UK use it as well. It comes in different forms, a lot of times in cat litter. That is pretty much what I researched so far. If you have deeper research on why or why not to use it, then by all means let me know. Just a little more construction to that criticism would be much appreciated.

So to move forward:

1)What do you feel is the best mix for Hokkaido Elms (so far my favorite tree-and I want them to thrive) At this point, I'm open to trying both or several mixes to see what happens in a few years.

2) do rooted cuttings need a different soil for growing than potted bonsai plants, or is it better to use the same type of mix that they will be using in the future? So far mine are still in the sandy tree-shrub mix that they sprouted their roots in. I then put them in bigger pots when I saw their roots at the bottom of the 2.5" pot, but left them in their original soil and added more around the sides and bottom in their bigger 4" pots. I'm kind of winging it here so constructive criticism is welcome.

 

[grouper52]

Ah, beginners trying to sort the wheat from the chaff when it comes to bonsai soil. It just doesn't get any "better" than that!

Ask twenty people, you'll probably get a hundred answers. Ask a whole forum full of people and it goes on forever. The carnage can be appalling: shattered egos, butchered sacred cows, wounded friendships, illusions destroyed beyond all recognition, a wasteland of devastation where peaceful discussion once ruled.

G52, proud Combat Veteran of the BonsaiSite Soil Wars, circa 2005-07.

 

[Tachigi]

... may I be so bold to suggest you need to add more depth to your research in the future.

To add to the pile of research. If you haven't read it, try this article.

I would also amend this article by saying that in most cases, save pines, that chopped sphagnum performs a lot better than pine bark when you want to add some organic to the recipe.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Of course I do...I'm just a beginner...I'm just posting my results thus far. (it's only been 4 months) I'm kinda just experimenting here. My limited research is by no means completed.

I understand you are a beginner and yes we all started there at one point in time.

You made a comment that DE was better than Akadama, nothing can be further from the truth. That is why I commented as I did.

Grouper52 sumed it up rather well, soil wars is almost like saying I understand your sister... well you know.

Akadama is indeed the choice material to use, as is Kanuma (for acidic loving trees). However these materials are expensive, not readily available in all areas and expensive to ship. So folks have found alternatives.

The aforementioned statement is pretty bold in itself, however there are caveats. Akadama that is exposed to a freeze an thaw cycle will turn into mush and be useless as a substrate on mature trees. You might get away with it during developmental stages of your trees as more frequent re-potting will take place 2-3 years vice 5 or more on well established bonsai.

The reason why I said Akadama and Kanuma are the best for what they are is because most calicinated clay products DE, Turface, Oil dry etc... are inert, outside of their water retaining properties, whilst the other two contain ingredients that have proven beneficial to bonsai.

Not all Akadama will collapse in 2 years, the dble red line or dble fired stuff will not as quick but still does.

A few things are extremely important on these forums. One; please complete your profile wrt where you live etc... this will assist us in giving you better advice or directing you to clubs in your area.

My limited research is by no means completed

... and may I suggest you continue looking up soil recipes in the search function of the forums or google. All this information is readily available, it varies with areas, species, watering habits, schedule etc... While doing research take notes, and extrapolate the information. If 9-10 people say to do this or that, they cannot all be wrong, especially if they are located near you. Why re-invent the wheel.

The reason why members are reluctant to discuss substrate is because of too many variables and the fact that folks want to know the magic fix yesterday, that is not going to happen. This type of discussion goes on three, four times often more every year, after a while you will understand where we are coming from.

As mentioned you have drawn some rather bold conclusions wrt DE, to include but not limited to: 4 months. The latter is insufficient time to evaluate anything, four years would be more like it. I have been at this going on 6 years now and have only fine tuned my own recipe, which is crushed granit, turface and pine bark. Why those components? Well that is all that is available in my area and works under my growing conditions. Furthermore, when I need Turface, I need to order it ahead of time as this is not readily available. You will also notice that I have not included any percentages for my components, that's because there is a base that I work from (one bucket) that is augmented with sifted components of 3 other buckets. The reason for this, even the same species of tree will often display unique characteristics that require to vary the percentages of certain components on re-repotting. Now do you understand why folks are reluctant to discuss soil, there is just too many variables

1)What do you feel is the best mix for Hokkaido Elms (so far my favorite tree-and I want them to thrive) At this point, I'm open to trying both or several mixes to see what happens in a few years.

This article was written by request some 4 years ago from a different forum. It was written in collagoration with Brent Walston and Harry Harrington. I like to call this "one stop shopping". Everything discussed has links for added info. It is a long read, but it saves on googling.

Welcome to bonsai, it is a beautiful passion and may your journey be fulfilling.

 

[Rick Moquin]

To add to the pile of research. If you haven't read it, try this article.

I would also amend this article by saying that in most cases, save pines, that chopped sphagnum performs a lot better than pine bark when you want to add some organic to the recipe.

... absolutely Tom. I forgot about Colin's article and yes chopped sphagnum is paying dividends especially with maples. Hey Walter's has been professing the latter for years

 

[Rick Moquin]

G52, proud Combat Veteran of the BonsaiSite Soil Wars, circa 2005-07.

Ah, the good old days. How many purple hearts again Will?

 

[Hisaoka]

Rick- Thanks for the info. I'm sorry- I wasn't trying to make an absolute statement of DE is better than akadama, it's just something I heard about when I was researching soils. I would really like to try akadama (that was my first choice actually) but is is pricey and hard to come by in my area, then I came along one of the articles you mentioned above, and then I read this paragraph:

Catlitter (also jokingly known as 'Kittydama') or Diatomaceous Earth or 'Diatomite' For anyone living in the UK, I would wholeheartedly recommend 'Tescos Premium Lightweight Cat litter'. This fired clay has excellent properties as a bonsai soil.

I have been using this 'soil' for all of my trees for a number of years now and would not switch to anything else. It is very cheap and given that almost everyone in the UK lives within 5 miles of a Tesco Supermarket, it is easily obtainable.

For more information about inorganic soils, sorces for these soils around the world, please see this article Cat Litter as Bonsai Soil

Granted they are in the UK, and it seems to work for them there, but Like you said I should find what works here in Oregon. I'll be attending our local bonsai club meeting on 9/3 for the first time and definitely take notes on what they are using.

I have read all the articles you listed above and thank you for the great info.

 

[grizzlywon]

Are we talking about DE that is the powder form. The only DE I am aware of is a very, very fine powder. So fine you can put it on your dog and the particles with kill fleas. It's so small it will get in between their joints and they die.