coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I'm gonna need more of that popcorn! Wow, some absolutely amazing shit in this thread.
SI have decided to go back into bonsaiNut seclusion.ee ya guys.
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You wish me to post them here now...I have no problem with that...your just a big mouth who is afraid to post a tree because everyone will "KNOW" where you stand in the pecking order. Just say the word and I'll post it. I sent it in a PM so as not to embarrass you, but I have no problem making it public...what do you say?
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
And JWI wonders why I'm still taking about chickens.
Hens are concerned about pecking order.
Hens.
Sorce
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
This forum does not have to be this way, YOU guys make it so. You make it this way cause you talk alot and never post a tree.
Post a tree and allow the forum to talk about it. let them tell you about your shortcomings or even that you should just throw in the towel because your ten years of involvement here have produced no results.
You guys are the one that need to put up, I have for 15 years here. Anyone...are you all chicken shits? Do you even have a tree. and if you do can it be called bonsai, or is it just some nursery piece of crap you picked up at a nursery and have no idea how to wire it? These are harsh words, no one will sat them...I have no problem with doing it....because I care. I have friends all over this state at the caliber that Adair does bonsai, willing to spend thousands on a tree. I have asked them before about discussion forums and helping out...
They tell me why...I have lurked there before and these people know it all. They have their piece of shit and will defend it till you want to crawl thru the wire and throttle them. But they come back day after day and argue with anyone willing to put up a decent tree and talk about it,cause if they say something stupid about it and they get called for it, the tree poster becomes the enemy of the forum...much like Sorce, vocal about everything and knows nothing.
Truth hurts, I'll hammer that forever here.
Post a tree and allow the forum to talk about it. let them tell you about your shortcomings or even that you should just throw in the towel because your ten years of involvement here have produced no results.
You guys are the one that need to put up, I have for 15 years here. Anyone...are you all chicken shits? Do you even have a tree. and if you do can it be called bonsai, or is it just some nursery piece of crap you picked up at a nursery and have no idea how to wire it? These are harsh words, no one will sat them...I have no problem with doing it....because I care. I have friends all over this state at the caliber that Adair does bonsai, willing to spend thousands on a tree. I have asked them before about discussion forums and helping out...
They tell me why...I have lurked there before and these people know it all. They have their piece of shit and will defend it till you want to crawl thru the wire and throttle them. But they come back day after day and argue with anyone willing to put up a decent tree and talk about it,cause if they say something stupid about it and they get called for it, the tree poster becomes the enemy of the forum...much like Sorce, vocal about everything and knows nothing.
Truth hurts, I'll hammer that forever here.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I've posted trees in the past. I'll post again when the time is right. Or maybe not. I don't feel the need to prove anything or establish my place in any pecking order.
Woocash
Omono
Truth doesn’t hurt. It’s the delivery that hurts. Why be horrible when you can just be honest? Is it not nice to be nice?
Criticism creates progression whereas abuse stifles all. I’ve criticised several trees on here (yes me, a lowly beginner) and in not one instance has anybody come back with any form of rebuke. You don’t have to be a dick to tell the truth. I’ll hammer THAT forever here.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
There you go, I get it, much easier to just throw mud when it's convenient. If you really were the way your think you are, you wouldn't say anything, because you have no credibility to back up anything you think others should do. That's OK, free country, for now. Couple more weeks and it won't be, the cry babies seem to be taking over the USA also.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Man up.
Sorce
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
If you've been paying attention, you would know that I rarely offer comments or suggestions on trees anymore. Why? Many reasons. Most people post crappy pictures. Even with good pictures, the 2-d view makes it difficult to really judge a lot of material. Then, when I take the time to offer suggestions or do virts, often there is no response, no thank you for your time. It's just not worth it, so I prefer to spend the time working on the trees in my yard. I don't have a great photo set up and even when I take the time and try to get good pics, they often turn out not that good (lighting is the biggest issue). So while I keep photos for my own reference, I don't bother posting them here. Besides, anymore you get very few useful comments.
As for cry babies...man, you are the biggest cry baby I've come across in a long time. Are you sure you didn't post under the alias "sawgrass"? He whined just like you and even started deleting all his own posts (like you said you wanted to do) before Greg made that impossible.
BTW, still waiting to see one of your trees in the National Exhibition. What's your excuse for that? Plenty of people ship trees to Rochester from California so come on, let us see what you've got.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Been there done that....people show their anger when they can't compete. I get it, one has to stay in their lane, and that is hard to do. A place like this without moderation allows the insane to run the asylum. Where do my rights as a contributor start and end? I contribute, and you don't. You don't like it that I want contributions, you feel pressured and you lash out the only way you cam, by calling me a jerk, The answer is simple for most of this forum, put up or shut up. That simple.
Criticism only begets progression if the poster is willing to admit they need help. Otherwise nothing happens and you are OK with that apparently. then the poster you critiqued goes on to call out other peoples work when they have shit. I don't understand how you guts put up with that. I have been at this forum for 15 years, do you think I have not seen everything that has gone on here. This is just more of the same shit. Those that can post do, and those that can't complain. Been like that at BSG, AoB, Talk, Nut, Page, IBC, Gardenweb, on and on for thirty years. I didn't even mention Reddit, all they do id argue there. Very inhospitable there. Just post your trees and move on. Thats all. What the hell you afraid of?
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
My tree does not go unless I go. Not going to happen for me with another sick lady in the house. besides I can tell the difference in a photo so I've seen whats there, and you have seen mine, if you have any credibility you could see the difference. We have one of the better shohin displays every other year at the Shohin seminar in Santa Nella. It's right in my back yard and I don't show trees there. I did show a tree there once because a guy needed a maple to round out his box display, I trusted him and he borrowed it. Other than that, I don't even show there.
I have shown in the local Kazari that started out in the Japanese museum in Hanford. I have won $2300.00 dollars for my entries. So far no New Yorkers have entered that either.
Attachments
Clorgan
Omono
I'm not sure people are afraid, maybe they just don't want to be belittled. I know personally that I've thought twice about posting my crappy newby photos because of the people on forums who just insult rather than help. But I've actually been really lucky that everyone has been lovely and welcoming, and have provided kind criticism.
I think there's definitely a way to word critiques, and that maybe you don't always word it in the best way, whether that's unintentional or not.
I'm new here and have had a good mooch around the threads. From what I've read I can see that bonsai is your passion - you love it and do want teach your ways to help people improve their trees. Which is think is great, but I do think it's important to consider that the people behind the usernames and photos are human beings with feelings. I'm a teacher, and even though I teach children not adults, I believe that people do not learn through negativity.
Reading through this thread has made me feel relieved that you haven't come across (or wanted to comment on) any of my photos. I'm sure you could offer some really useful info and things to work on, but I'm not sure it's worth the hammering you'd probably give me.
I hope I'm wrong though, because I think this is a brilliant resource and community and I hope to stick around for a long time
AaronThomas
Omono
Critiques and criticism or two completely different things. As someone who makes a living in the art field (not Bonsai) I have heard it all and over the years and I have had developed a thick skin. Nothing worse when your work is hanging on a wall and you hear someone say, “crap…”. You can’t be in the art world and not be able to let the shit roll off your back.
A critique is constructive criticism which allows the artist to think or see things from a different angle...Under a different light.
A criticism is typically unproductive and doesn’t usually help with creating better art. However, there are exceptions to every rule… An exception being the teacher that actually can perform and has “done it”… In these instances you have to be able to read between the lines… Look past the name-calling or rough tone and just listen and learn. Even thought it’s hard to be spoon feed shit… sometimes it’s best to chew, swallow, repeat. It’s not the best teaching method but sometimes it works.
Art is something that is subjective, typically without a standard set of rules and one of those things in which beauty can be in the eye of the beholder… Now I realize this is not the case with a Bonsai. There are a standard set of rules which one follows in order to create a tree that is pleasing to the eye… steps that need to be followed in order for the tree to progress accordingly. I have been in love with a Bonsai for the past 15 years and I still consider myself a newbie. There is not a day that goes by that I don’t learn something new from all of you here on this forum. I hope we can go back to trees soon… I see where every side is coming from on this thread… but maybe the proverbial horse is dead by now?
Egos aside… we all love the same thing.
A critique is constructive criticism which allows the artist to think or see things from a different angle...Under a different light.
A criticism is typically unproductive and doesn’t usually help with creating better art. However, there are exceptions to every rule… An exception being the teacher that actually can perform and has “done it”… In these instances you have to be able to read between the lines… Look past the name-calling or rough tone and just listen and learn. Even thought it’s hard to be spoon feed shit… sometimes it’s best to chew, swallow, repeat. It’s not the best teaching method but sometimes it works.
Art is something that is subjective, typically without a standard set of rules and one of those things in which beauty can be in the eye of the beholder… Now I realize this is not the case with a Bonsai. There are a standard set of rules which one follows in order to create a tree that is pleasing to the eye… steps that need to be followed in order for the tree to progress accordingly. I have been in love with a Bonsai for the past 15 years and I still consider myself a newbie. There is not a day that goes by that I don’t learn something new from all of you here on this forum. I hope we can go back to trees soon… I see where every side is coming from on this thread… but maybe the proverbial horse is dead by now?
Egos aside… we all love the same thing.
@Smoke
Ok, I gotta speak up now.
As you know, I attended the last California Shohin Convention last January. It was kind of a spur of the moment deal. I wasn’t planning on going, but Bill Valavanis noticed I was at Boon’s and invited me to come. So, I did.
I also know that you told me that it wasn’t as big as it it used to be. That was my first time, so I have no reference. It looked pretty big to me, with lots of workshops and attendees.
The actual Show was a bit of a disappointment, however. There were a few really good displays, but there were many with glaring faults. Faults that could easily been remedied. You and I talked about it, privately. Bill Valavanis and I talked about it, privately. You even wrote a blog about it.
I have been an active participant in the National Shohin Exhibitions in Kannapolis, NC. There were about twice as many displays in Kannapolis than there were in Santa Nella. Participants came from Florida, New York, Ohio, Mississippi, Vermont, and all points in between. Overall, the quality in Kannapolis was much higher than Santa Nella.
That was surprising to me. I know there are some great Shohin growers in California. Peter Macasieb alone has hundreds! So, where was everyone else?
For sure, at one time, California, and particularly Southern California led the way for bonsai on the US. Today, the winds of change are blowing...
Ok, I gotta speak up now.
As you know, I attended the last California Shohin Convention last January. It was kind of a spur of the moment deal. I wasn’t planning on going, but Bill Valavanis noticed I was at Boon’s and invited me to come. So, I did.
I also know that you told me that it wasn’t as big as it it used to be. That was my first time, so I have no reference. It looked pretty big to me, with lots of workshops and attendees.
The actual Show was a bit of a disappointment, however. There were a few really good displays, but there were many with glaring faults. Faults that could easily been remedied. You and I talked about it, privately. Bill Valavanis and I talked about it, privately. You even wrote a blog about it.
I have been an active participant in the National Shohin Exhibitions in Kannapolis, NC. There were about twice as many displays in Kannapolis than there were in Santa Nella. Participants came from Florida, New York, Ohio, Mississippi, Vermont, and all points in between. Overall, the quality in Kannapolis was much higher than Santa Nella.
That was surprising to me. I know there are some great Shohin growers in California. Peter Macasieb alone has hundreds! So, where was everyone else?
For sure, at one time, California, and particularly Southern California led the way for bonsai on the US. Today, the winds of change are blowing...
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I could post about 70 trees...and many cacti and orchids and bromeliads, etc... Some of what I grow is fairly rare in cultivation. I have a 20 year old 4' saguaro that was grown from seed and has never seen a desert. I used to have a coryanthese macrantha that bloomed regularly for me until I accidentally killed it. For trees, I have a number of redwoods of each type, 7 of the 8 baobab species, acacia, a key lime, ponderosa pine, a couple longaeva, many oaks, cherry, maple...I'd love to get my hands on a wollemia nobilis or some seed. I do have some welwitschia seed I'm dying to try... So yeah, I don't really "do bonsai" but this forum has a lot of information on general horticulture which is of interest to me. I'm aware that most of what I do with my trees is not of interest most here...so I don't engage much. So those who suggested engaging and getting to know people...this is why I don't. My interests only passingly intersect with the primary purpose of this site. Rather that clutter it with more garbage than I already have...I most often refrain from engagement.
But lets be honest here Smoke: I willfully admit your trees are better than mine. I've already stated you are credible in the art. I'm a nobody on the forum. What do YOU gain by me posting my trees? And how is that even relevant to a thread about you leaving the forum...again. From your behaviors and actions towards others, I suspect it has more to do with your superiority complex than much else. I post a tree so you can prove you're better than me at one specific skillset? The way I have seen you act towards certain people...myself including...is reprehensible...and it's often under the guise of "show me your trees!"
But since you insist, here's one of my tree.
Yes, it is mine. A coastal redwood received as a 8-10" tall nursery plug in October 2018. It spent that first winter slip potted into a 6" clay pot with miracle grow potting mix in a south facing window just off my kitchen under an LED grow panel I bought for supplemental light. In Marchish of 2019 it was bare rooted but not root pruned and moved into a 3 gallon grow bag with 70% Napa 8822 and 30% chunk coconut coif. It sat on my Kansas City deck which gets full sunlight until midafternoon and often 90F+ days. It saw a LOT of 90F days! If I was home, I misted it. If I knew it was going to be hot and I couldn't be around, it sat in an inch or more of water. In the fall, when night temps dropped below 40F regularly (early October I think...I'd have to look at the timestamps of pictures) it got packed into an overcrowded a 4' x 2' grow tent with a new and much brighter LED. Too bright, in fact. Another coastal redwood sitting right next to this one but more central to the panel burned out all its chlorophyll. I was actually worried I killed it but the leaves weren't burnt dry...they still felt very lacey...so I left it and just ran the lights for a shorter time so this one didn't burn also. They were moved back onto my deck in mid March. The "burnt" one has since greened up like nothing happened (yes I have pictures) and this one is now as you see it in the picture.
Unlike most of my trees, this one IS slated to be put into a bonsai pot some day. That's why I picked it. I thought it more relevant to the community and somehow more fair to you in this charade we're playing by asking me to post a tree. I have commissioned a set of 3 pots to be designed for me that I will plant one of each species of true redwoods in. The dawn redwood will be from one I've grown from seed, at the time I bought this as a plug, I bought a set of 3 coastals and 3 sequoia...whichever I like most out of those sets will likely go into the other two pots. Even though they will go into "bonsai" pots, I still don't consider them bonsai but the distinction is mostly semantic and hotly argued in some corners of this community...often by you.
And now that I've engaged in the manner people are criticizing me in this thread for not doing, let's over share
My character flaw...and I know this...is I get easily upset when I see what appears to be an aristocracy subverting others. Leo is the most outstanding member of this community for the way he consistently projects an aura of great knowledge and experience and yet consistently avoids denigrating others while doing it. Sigh...If I could be more like Leo... Anyway, look at my post history...it's not long. I did start out asking questions and posting back my experiences. What changed that was Smoke. I, personally, could not deal with his behavior toward others he appeared to believe inferior. Many forums I have been apart of would have closed or deleted many of his threads because they realize the power of Google and want to protect their brand...and yes I know a couple forum admins and yes, this is an oft cited reason by them for closing/deleting threads. One of Smoke's posts in particular broke the last straw. That exact post and the response from Smoke to it are linked above in this thread. Since then I have been back to post a few times...mostly because if you have any interest in horticulture of trees Google won't let you escape this site (The BNut brand is strong! The community (not the individual) should be proud!) Inevitably Google leads back here and if the topic is niche and of interest to me, I do sometimes still engage. It was an unrelated Google search that led me to this thread, actually. Once I say the title, my character flaw wouldn't let me not throw Smoke's own words back at him!
I have since deleted everything I can about my account except my username and the account itself. I've already asked the admins to take care of those details for me...we'll see if they are listening. If you think me a troll lobby them to do what I've already asked. Otherwise, I may have to ask louder...
But I'm curious Smoke...if you are really leaving...are you going to close your account too?
Damnit! There's that flaw of mine again
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
That's not up for me to decide. Greg does the banning here not me. I get frustrated because people have no ability to except criticism and improve. I respect your reason for not doing it, but respect the forum and not feel a need to talk about other peoples tree when you don't post your own. It just is not fair for the people that do post, and twenty people come in and shatter a guys dream with language you gleaned from some imbecile here last week.But I'm curious Smoke...if you are really leaving...are you going to close your account too?
Damnit! There's that flaw of mine again
You have no flaw, we are humans and have a need to talk and say stupid shit. It's what we do. I'm not proud of this feeling I have of the forum and they way I talk some times, and it is the reason I wish I could just throw it away, but the overwhelming need in me to help is more powerful than the need to stop. I try, but people just don't seem to want to be helped, they wish to argue because of their shortcomings...and that's the crux of that matter...shortcomings. If you don't mind, post this in the new thread, allow people to see how you stack up against the forum...be proud, we all start somewhere, but we get better with help. Resisting the help is what I don't understand. Can I help you, of course i can. Can you open your ears and shut your pie hole, that remains to be seen.....
Clorgan
Omono
I think it's important to remember that not everyone is here to make the best trees and be in the art world and show trees at shows. Some people just do this for fun, and the community and of course to learn, but shouldn't have to look past name calling or rough tone.
Providing feedback and ways to improve is great, and I think people will generally respond well to them, as long as they are worded appropriately.
Providing feedback and ways to improve is great, and I think people will generally respond well to them, as long as they are worded appropriately.
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