Should literati JBP candles be cut shorter?

[Mike Corazzi]

Since my summer prune, my JBP bunjin is throwing VERY vigorous new buds (candles)
Should these be cut shorter than a JBP "normal" decandling?

 

[Shibui]

I can see the overall view of your pine but that doesn't give enough detail of what the new growth looks like so hard to guess what pruning you did in summer and what response the tree has given.
There appears to be several different types of growth through the branches - I can see one young emerging candle but others appear to be more mature shoots with well developed needles. Different types of growth can be treated differently so I'd like to see more detail before giving any ideas.
A few details of what you cut, how much you cut and when might help a bit too.

 

[bwaynef]

I don't understand your question. Decandling by its very nature means removing all of this year's new growth, leaving maybe 1/8" or 1mm. Are you asking if you should cut shorter than that? Are you asking if you should do that now?

 

[Nybonsai12]

What did your fert schedule look like around time of decandling? I believe I've read that you should hold back fert just before and after decandling to avoid long necks and longer needles.

I have one that for the last two years has thrown out very strong growth with long undesireable necks after decandling. Guess i have to really get it off the juice before and after.

 

[Gabler]

I thought decandling was done in late May or early June, depending on your zone?

 

[Maiden69]

I thought decandling was done in late May or early June, depending on your zone?

Could be done in July as well, depending on the size of the tree and the local weather. But he is talking about candle cutting. Ryan advises to cut the long candles from spring that were not decandled in mid-late August, and Jonas does the same thing in spring. Ryan also said that a lot of times if you cut the candles in 1/2 during decandling time, the tree tends to ditch the entire candle instead of setting adventitious buds, he also recommends to balance the needle quantity, and to stagger pull needles on the piece left over so as to get buds where you want them. As the tree will prioritize places with needles left on.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Could be done in July as well, depending on the size of the tree and the local weather. But he is talking about candle cutting. Ryan advises to cut the long candles from spring that were not decandled in mid-late August, and Jonas does the same thing in spring. Ryan also said that a lot of times if you cut the candles in 1/2 during decandling time, the tree tends to ditch the entire candle instead of setting adventitious buds, he also recommends to balance the needle quantity, and to stagger pull needles on the piece left over so as to get buds where you want them. As the tree will prioritize places with needles left on.

Did it in May. My question is whether to let candles EXTEND for vigor or cut short-er to ...prevent... vigor.



Did I mention that I like deciduous trees more than pines?

 

[Nybonsai12]

Did it in May. My question is whether to let candles EXTEND for vigor or cut short-er to ...prevent... vigor.



Did I mention that I like deciduous trees more than pines?

No you don't want to cut twice.

After decandling you should have likely got two new buds at the cut site. If more than two you can reduce to pairs. But otherwise let it grow.

 

[Maiden69]

Did it in May. My question is whether to let candles EXTEND for vigor or cut short-er to ...prevent... vigor.



Did I mention that I like deciduous trees more than pines?

Ok, if you decandle the tree in May and we are talking about the new summer candles you could do that. Ryan don't recommend it, he usually advises to let them grow to recover the tree energy and deal with them in spring. But I know a lot of people do candle selection in fall/early winter.

To add... Ryan also suggest you don't reduce the summer candles to two during fall, but rather in spring on most cases.

The way I understand is that the more foliage the tree has the better it fairs in case of extreme cold weather, which you may not experience at all.

 

[roberthu]

Did it in May. My question is whether to let candles EXTEND for vigor or cut short-er to ...prevent... vigor.



Did I mention that I like deciduous trees more than pines?

Cut everything and see what happens

 

[MaciekA]

From a Ryan Neil or Michael Hagedorn perspective and through the lens of literati study under those two teachers, there is a mismatch between what's being asked about here (candle pinching, not decandling) and the current horticultural and structural configuration of the tree. From that point of view, the tree is coarse-structured and the tree is potted into a large deep pot. The tree is thus configured more for vigor and lengthening and thickening than it is to slow down and get much shorter finer growth from the branches. This is not a JWP after all.

You can certainly address those branches by ramifying aggressively, by cutting past the candle, by pinching, by plucking needles, by pushing decandling ever further into summer (late June, July, etc) and so on, but: I would hesitate to say "go ahead and do that" because in my view, again through the literati Neil/Hagedorn lens, the tree is currently overpotted and has a near-term repot debt ahead of it to prevent overshooting the target. If I was given this tree today and told "keep it literati" then my plan would actually be a fairly aggressive repot. That alone would have a slowdown effect. There is admittedly a bit of Oregon bias built into this as well, as JBP puts on even more summer growth here than it does in CA.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Mike Corazzi
If the tree were mine, I would do nothing this year. Then next year, I would restrain myself and wait to decandle MUCH LATER in the year than May. If you want short shoots, decandle later in the year. July, even the end of July would be reasonable. But consult JBP growers IN YOUR GROWING AREA. Look at their trees, and ask when they decandle. But in general, the later you decandle, the shorter the resulting flush of growth will be.

 

[MaciekA]

@Mike Corazzi
But consult JBP growers IN YOUR GROWING AREA. Look at their trees, and ask when they decandle.

Pretty much this. OP lives approximately 11 to 12 miles away from Peter Tea's garden and Peter does workshops.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pretty much this. OP lives approximately 11 to 12 miles away from Peter Tea's garden and Peter does workshops.

I had workshops with Peter Tea, I think very highly of his teaching style and knowledge base. He is a great resource.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

@Mike Corazzi
If the tree were mine, I would do nothing this year. Then next year, I would restrain myself and wait to decandle MUCH LATER in the year than May. If you want short shoots, decandle later in the year. July, even the end of July would be reasonable. But consult JBP growers IN YOUR GROWING AREA. Look at their trees, and ask when they decandle. But in general, the later you decandle, the shorter the resulting flush of growth will be.

Did that last year and got a bushy mop..



It is definitely over potted. As dictated by the local oven it lives in.

 

[Shibui]

It often takes several years of decandling, needle removal and strict fertilizer regime to see a noticeable change in JBP vigour. I remember Ryan Neil telling us to stick with one method for at least 3 years because swapping from one to another often allows them to regain strength.
You should still be able to gain some measure of control over a pine in a big pot but it will take a bit longer and growth will always be a little long and stronger.
In some warmer areas JBP can be trimmed more than once and I guess that this one could do with that second trim. Given it appears to have plenty of strength it is unlikely to do permanent damage.
I'd still like to see some more detail of a couple of branches which may tell more about how you've pruned, the tree's response and what to try next.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

It often takes several years of decandling, needle removal and strict fertilizer regime to see a noticeable change in JBP vigour. I remember Ryan Neil telling us to stick with one method for at least 3 years because swapping from one to another often allows them to regain strength.
You should still be able to gain some measure of control over a pine in a big pot but it will take a bit longer and growth will always be a little long and stronger.
In some warmer areas JBP can be trimmed more than once and I guess that this one could do with that second trim. Given it appears to have plenty of strength it is unlikely to do permanent damage.
I'd still like to see some more detail of a couple of branches which may tell more about how you've pruned, the tree's response and what to try next.

POST trim. And how it looks today. Right now. Today. 10/21/2023

 

[River's Edge]

POST trim. And how it looks today. Right now. Today. 10/21/2023

View attachment 514024

From my perspective " decandling" will primarily change the existing foliage on the ends of the branches. I would focus on pruning for back budding to condense and compact the selected branches for design development. Leaving the decandling for later in the design development stage. The larger potting situation will aid health and vigour, which will aid response to pruning for back budding. Plenty of time to reduce needle length after more shoots have been developed. the increase in shoots will distribute energy and naturally begin to reduce needle length as well.
Grow out, gain vigour, cut back beyond apical candles into existing needles for stronger bud back response. Also wire down and open with existing shoots to improve response.

 

[Shibui]

@River's Edge has given the advice I would have given.
It appears you had only 1 new bud from each shoot after decandling? Not sure why as we normally get a cluster of new buds from healthy trees. Maybe it was not strong enough when you decandled?
As you initially pointed out this year's shoots are long. They can be cut down to the lower healthy needles and still get a good response that should give more new buds than simply decandling.
I would let the tree alone this season but feed well. Not sure of your exact climate but I suspect that your pines are probably active through winter as they are here so winter fertilizing will give good spring response then prune in late spring/early summer.

You will probably still have to set a multi year goal to tame this tree. Prune hard next time then follow with decandling for a couple of years and see what happens.

In warmer areas JBP can have several growth spurts each year. Some growers say they prune or decandle twice each year to manage vigour in JBP in such areas. JBP are strong trees that do respond well to pruning so don't be too afraid of trying extra pruning if it appears your tree needs it.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

@River's Edge has given the advice I would have given.
It appears you had only 1 new bud from each shoot after decandling? Not sure why as we normally get a cluster of new buds from healthy trees. Maybe it was not strong enough when you decandled?
As you initially pointed out this year's shoots are long. They can be cut down to the lower healthy needles and still get a good response that should give more new buds than simply decandling.
I would let the tree alone this season but feed well. Not sure of your exact climate but I suspect that your pines are probably active through winter as they are here so winter fertilizing will give good spring response then prune in late spring/early summer.

You will probably still have to set a multi year goal to tame this tree. Prune hard next time then follow with decandling for a couple of years and see what happens.

In warmer areas JBP can have several growth spurts each year. Some growers say they prune or decandle twice each year to manage vigour in JBP in such areas. JBP are strong trees that do respond well to pruning so don't be too afraid of trying extra pruning if it appears your tree needs it.

At 83 (on Tuesday) "multi year" is probably not in the game.