Shohin dwarf maple

so if I were to buy a laced burgundy acer palmatum, is there any chance it could not be grafted? are seeds an option?
 
It is pretty much industry standard to produce cultivars with grafted root stock. They are predominately producing trees for landscaping. I have a local nursery that lists over a hundred varieties of Japanese Maples all of which are grafted. ($20US for a tube start) For my purpose I have to buy a graft and grow it out till I can take a cutting or an airlayer to get a tree started without a graft union. The lace-leaf and other dissectums are some of the more sensitve varieties and hardest to keep going on their own roots.
 
Seeds are an option, but keep in mind that seed selection is where alot of cultivars are developed from. Grafted cultivars that do make seed that is viable will almost always produce the root stock tree and not the cultivar. When trees are produced through cross pollination the seedlings will range throughout the characteristics of the parent trees. I collect seedlings from a tree that is a cross between an Atropurpurum and a standard Acer p. The tree has leaves that reddish/greenish with golden highlights. Beautiful trees, but the seedlings are almost all standard Acer p. and afew that show the markings of the parent tree. In five hundred seedlings there may be a dozen that show the red atropurpurum leaf. I've found these to be very weak and most die the first season. Those that survive, half will revert to green leaf the second season or third. I have one nice atropurpurum tree growing from seed that is six feet now and doing very well.
 
But a cultivar grafted on rootsock that has difficulty to survive with its roots, after airlayered and removed the rootstock, won't you have the same problem?
 
what's all that green stuff on the top half of the tree? :confused:
I just saw a bud on one of my trees yesterday. Cant EVER recall things starting this late. I usually start moving my trees to the benches around St. Patty's day. This year was a full 2 weeks after, and maybe a bit more. Still not done repotting, but this year I am redoing pretty much everything. I'm finding a lot of decomposed (T-word) that has left many trees with poor, black, thin root systems. Going towards mostly pumice (dry stall) and some akadama. Occasionally (T-word) will find it's way into the mix. Granite is off the menu, and for the most part, so are pine bark fines. But this discussion should be on another thread about (T-word).
 
It is our responsibility as stewards to provide the extra care needed to keep these delicate trees alive and well. That may mean deeper pots, more winter protection, feeding and watering more specificly. That's the challenge of keeps these on their own roots. Many will do quite well on their own if given the proper care, I've had no luck with dissectums though.
 
To preface, I mean no offense and am asking for my own education.

I think see a fair bit of reverse taper on the left side branch. At least, I don't think it's just the picture. I understand that you've had this tree for quite a while. In the first pictures it looked like the right side had this issue too, but more recently seems to have grown out of it. Is this something that the left side will also grow past eventually, or just something that's not really a problem? Perhaps I'm jumping ahead of where your at with it?
 
skrit said:
To preface, I mean no offense and am asking for my own education.

I think see a fair bit of reverse taper on the left side branch. At least, I don't think it's just the picture. I understand that you've had this tree for quite a while. In the first pictures it looked like the right side had this issue too, but more recently seems to have grown out of it. Is this something that the left side will also grow past eventually, or just something that's not really a problem? Perhaps I'm jumping ahead of where your at with it?
Click to expand...

No, that's a fair question. That branch has been an issue for a while and I'm trying to rectify it. The reverse taper isn't as bad as the picture makes it out to be, but it's there. There was an ugly knob of wood there that was partially removed last year, and the callus is mostly to blame. I need the callus to continue to develop and will eventually carve it again and hopefully smooth things out, though I suspect there will always be a bit of reverse taper there. Thanks for the post.
 
That makes sense, and I can understand what you're saying about the picture after I went back and looked at the ones in your initial post, the one where the tree is a bit ice-covered in particular gives a different angle on that branch, and I think I can see what you mean.

I know that over the fall there was a fair bit of discussion regarding design, aesthetics and 'rules', and a bit of talk about why and when they're followed or broken. Would you mind if I ask a follow-up question in that vein? From what you've written, it sounds like your intention is to retain the left branch and address the taper as best you can. Also, from the overall development, I think you've pretty much finished the root/nebari development, and the trunk seems like it has great taper. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm going to assume that at this point you're trying to move on to branch development (and already have some wire on to help guide that progress). I guess I'm just curious about your choice to retain that left branch. I think I've proven in other posts that I don't have a very developed knowledge of bonsai yet, and am only just developing my design sensibilities. I think that if this was my tree, I would consider lopping off that branch. If you want a branch there, you could hope for a new bud to pop at the collar. On the other hand, I think I've read that JM tend to be slow growers. Perhaps that's not really an option if you want to keep a 'branch' there. Anyway, back to my point/question, is there a need to keep that left side? As a branch, it seems to thick compared with the trunk. I think I see a pretty dynamic trunk line with great taper on the right hand side, with potential to train part of the tree back over to the left to balance it.

I took some time to make a virt to show you what I mean, the original and my changed one shown below. Changes included repotting at a slightly different angle (~7° CCW), bending both remaining branches away from each other (one goes further 'up' and the other one to drop down more, with the upright one becoming the continuation of the trunk, you could go even further over with it) and a slight color/level correction so that it's easier to see.

I hope you don't mind me doing all this, it's been a long winter and there's still nearly 3 ft of snow on the ground up here so I'm going a bit stir crazy. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
 

Attachments

  • tree.jpg
    tree.jpg
    57.4 KB · Views: 52
  • treethought.jpg
    treethought.jpg
    57 KB · Views: 53
Last edited:
skrit said:
That makes sense, and I can understand what you're saying about the picture after I went back and looked at the ones in your initial post, the one where the tree is a bit ice-covered in particular gives a different angle on that branch, and I think I can see what you mean.

I know that over the fall there was a fair bit of discussion regarding design, aesthetics and 'rules', and a bit of talk about why and when they're followed or broken. Would you mind if I ask a follow-up question in that vein? From what you've written, it sounds like your intention is to retain the left branch and address the taper as best you can. Also, from the overall development, I think you've pretty much finished the root/nebari development, and the trunk seems like it has great taper. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm going to assume that at this point you're trying to move on to branch development (and already have some wire on to help guide that progress). I guess I'm just curious about your choice to retain that left branch. I think I've proven in other posts that I don't have a very developed knowledge of bonsai yet, and am only just developing my design sensibilities. I think that if this was my tree, I would consider lopping off that branch. If you want a branch there, you could hope for a new bud to pop at the collar. On the other hand, I think I've read that JM tend to be slow growers. Perhaps that's not really an option if you want to keep a 'branch' there. Anyway, back to my point/question, is there a need to keep that left side? As a branch, it seems to thick compared with the trunk. I think I see a pretty dynamic trunk line with great taper on the right hand side, with potential to train part of the tree back over to the left to balance it.

I took some time to make a virt to show you what I mean, the original and my changed one shown below. Changes included repotting at a slightly different angle (~7° CCW), bending both remaining branches away from each other (one goes further 'up' and the other one to drop down more, with the upright one becoming the continuation of the trunk, you could go even further over with it) and a slight color/level correction so that it's easier to see.

I hope you don't mind me doing all this, it's been a long winter and there's still nearly 3 ft of snow on the ground up here so I'm going a bit stir crazy. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Click to expand...

Once again, no worries with your posts at all...it's a good discussion to say the least and it really makes me think about my design decisions. In all honesty, I'm learning as I go here, as I'm relatively new to growing and designing deciduous stock like this. From my perspective, I'm still building the upper trunk as well as branches and apex. I THINK I know where I want to go with it, but we'll see. As far as that left branch, it's not perfect, but it's in a good place, adds balance and it has character. It is a bit thick but I'm hoping some skillful carving in the future will reduce its weight. Your virt is interesting, but I'm not sure I'd go that way with a maple, or at least this maple...in my opinion, it would really set this one back. Time will tell, I guess. Once again, thanks for the post.
 
skrit said:
That makes sense, and I can understand what you're saying about the picture after I went back and looked at the ones in your initial post, the one where the tree is a bit ice-covered in particular gives a different angle on that branch, and I think I can see what you mean.

I know that over the fall there was a fair bit of discussion regarding design, aesthetics and 'rules', and a bit of talk about why and when they're followed or broken. Would you mind if I ask a follow-up question in that vein? From what you've written, it sounds like your intention is to retain the left branch and address the taper as best you can. Also, from the overall development, I think you've pretty much finished the root/nebari development, and the trunk seems like it has great taper. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm going to assume that at this point you're trying to move on to branch development (and already have some wire on to help guide that progress). I guess I'm just curious about your choice to retain that left branch. I think I've proven in other posts that I don't have a very developed knowledge of bonsai yet, and am only just developing my design sensibilities. I think that if this was my tree, I would consider lopping off that branch. If you want a branch there, you could hope for a new bud to pop at the collar. On the other hand, I think I've read that JM tend to be slow growers. Perhaps that's not really an option if you want to keep a 'branch' there. Anyway, back to my point/question, is there a need to keep that left side? As a branch, it seems to thick compared with the trunk. I think I see a pretty dynamic trunk line with great taper on the right hand side, with potential to train part of the tree back over to the left to balance it.

I took some time to make a virt to show you what I mean, the original and my changed one shown below. Changes included repotting at a slightly different angle (~7° CCW), bending both remaining branches away from each other (one goes further 'up' and the other one to drop down more, with the upright one becoming the continuation of the trunk, you could go even further over with it) and a slight color/level correction so that it's easier to see.

I hope you don't mind me doing all this, it's been a long winter and there's still nearly 3 ft of snow on the ground up here so I'm going a bit stir crazy. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Click to expand...

For a shohin size tree I think the left branch is needed. Otherwise you're on your way to building a larger tree which is ok too but not the original intent here. I think the trunk still retains all of its wonderful movement even with that branch in place.

Although some varieties are, Japanese maples are not necessarily slow growers at all. It just takes a long time to build a well constructed and ramified canopy. Often you will see in hastily built canopies, long bare branches with ramification happening only at the ends.
 
Dav4 said:
...As far as that left branch, it's not perfect, but it's in a good place, adds balance and it has character.
Click to expand...
Everything you said makes sense, but I think, for me, you probably summed it up best in the last few words, "adds balance and ... character". I totally get that. :) Thanks for your responses, I look forward to following this tree in the future.

MACH5 said:
For a shohin size tree I think the left branch is needed. Otherwise you're on your way to building a larger tree...
Click to expand...
You know, even with it right in the title, it still didn't connect for me, but that's a really good point. The virt would need quite a bit more thickening and subsequently increase the overall height. Also, as Dave also indicated, removing it does leave the tree awkwardly bare on the left hand side for the near-middle future.
 
Often, early in the development of a bonsai, the goal is to build a trunk. Do whatever it takes using sacrifice branches to build the nebari and a tapering trunk.

Then cut every branch off and start on the primary branches. Then the secondary branches. And finally once the skeleton is built, the ramification.

This takes time. This tree is still in that early stage.
 
If you paid less than $10 for the tree its probably NOT grafted. Besides, it looks like a seedling to me. Grafted maples do not have a "V" shape. The bark may eventually blend together in grafted maples, but depends on the cultivar. That's why rooted cuttings of Japanese maples are preferred to grafted cultivars. But some cultivars will not root, and some will root, but may not grow vigorously on their own roots.

Your tree is a seedling, not Kotohime. The roots do not look like an air layer to me either. From the photo with leaves it looks like you have a seedling. There is nothing wrong with a seedling Japanese maple. Most of the Japanese maple bonsai in Japan are seedlings, not grafts or cuttings or air layers.
 
Thanks Bill. If I recall, I paid around $10 for the tree, so that doesn't help. I'm pretty sure it's not grafted, but recall it having been a named cultivar, so perhaps a cutting. though as you say, not Kotohime. In the end it doesn't matter to me as it's a good little tree and it's been fun to work on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
Dwarf Maple Shohin Styling Advice
Replies
5
Views
1K
MrWunderful
MrWunderful
Chuah
Shohin Dwarf Japanese Mulberry with Fruits
Replies
3
Views
2K
Carol 83
Carol 83
S
Shohin substrate needed ?
Replies
4
Views
180
snox7
S
mrfish33
Western redcedar shohin root-over-rock
Replies
0
Views
136
mrfish33
mrfish33
Rodrigo
Shohin Olive progression
Replies
9
Views
523
Hartinez
Hartinez
Back
Top Bottom