Shohin Chinese Elm

[markyscott]

I believe the tree is very healthy now. I noted above that I had what I think was black spot that slowed things down during the past growing season. I finally got it under control with repeated applications of copper. After that it seemed to be very healthy. The point about the nebari surprises me a little. I guess I thought it was pretty decent - although there is always room for improvement. So let's assume this is the list:

1. Improve nebari
2. Additional branches in the right places to improve the ladder-like appearance
3. Thicken lowest left branch
4. Taper and movement in all branches and the continuation of the trunk
5. Ramification.

I would be interested in hearing what you would do and in what order. Thanks for the help.

Ok, based on your knowledge of the tree being healthy, the first priority I would focus on are the trunk and nebari. Now this is asthetic - you'll get some disagreement about how good or bad your nebari is and how attractive the scarring on the trunk is. If it were mine, I would try and heal the trunk scars and improve the nebari. To do this, the only thing we'd need to worry about in the short term is growth. I would probably put it in a bit larger container - I'd probably build a grow box for it - plant it on a board inside the box and let it grow for a 2-3 years. Plant it more deeply - bury the nebari for now. Keep the soil surface from drying out by covering it with sphagnum moss to keep the surface roots healthy. You want them bubbling along on the soil surface.

I would fertilize frequently while it's in the grow box. I would control growth on the secondary branch (let the primary catch up), but let everything else grow (no pinching or pruning except on that secondary branch). Let the branches grow until they reach the desired thickness, then start trimming the branch - don't let them get too big for their position on the trunk or we'll be right back to where we started. If the tree is growing strongly, you should get a fair amount of back budding on the trunk. Rub off the buds in the wrong spots and keep the ones in the right spot. Make sure the new buds don't get shaded out - they'll weaken and die if this happens. Keep more than you think you need - always easier to cut them off than graft them on. This will accelerate the trunk healing and help improve the nebari. Keep buds also on the front of the trunk - a few of those will help you get away from the flatness of the design.

To control the black spot, give it lots of full sun during the growing season, water in the morning, and don't wet the foliage - especially in the evening. In the dormant season , clean the trunk with a toothbrush and warm water. Right before the tree comes out of dormancy, spray thoroughly with dilute lime sulphur. Then just spray as needed with the harsh fungicides during the year.

This should improve 1-3. If you're happy with the nebari, I'd do the same thing except not worry about planting it on a board.

Once the wounds are healed, you're happy with the nebari, and the primary branch has sufficiently thickened, I would cut back hard in the dormant season. Like this:



At that point, put it in a bit smaller pot. After 2-3 years of strong growth the tree should respond by throwing lots of back buds. You can use this to start building branch structure.

Scott

 

[VAFisher]

Ok, based on your knowledge of the tree being healthy, the first priority I would focus on are the trunk and nebari. Now this is asthetic - you'll get some disagreement about how good or bad your nebari is and how attractive the scarring on the trunk is. If it were mine, I would try and heal the trunk scars and improve the nebari. To do this, the only thing we'd need to worry about in the short term is growth. I would probably put it in a bit larger container - I'd probably build a grow box for it - plant it on a board inside the box and let it grow for a 2-3 years. Plant it more deeply - bury the nebari for now. Keep the soil surface from drying out by covering it with sphagnum moss to keep the surface roots healthy. You want them bubbling along on the soil surface.

I would fertilize frequently while it's in the grow box. I would control growth on the secondary branch (let the primary catch up), but let everything else grow (no pinching or pruning except on that secondary branch). Let the branches grow until they reach the desired thickness, then start trimming the branch - don't let them get too big for their position on the trunk or we'll be right back to where we started. If the tree is growing strongly, you should get a fair amount of back budding on the trunk. Rub off the buds in the wrong spots and keep the ones in the right spot. Make sure the new buds don't get shaded out - they'll weaken and die if this happens. Keep more than you think you need - always easier to cut them off than graft them on. This will accelerate the trunk healing and help improve the nebari. Keep buds also on the front of the trunk - a few of those will help you get away from the flatness of the design.

To control the black spot, give it lots of full sun during the growing season, water in the morning, and don't wet the foliage - especially in the evening. In the dormant season , clean the trunk with a toothbrush and warm water. Right before the tree comes out of dormancy, spray thoroughly with dilute lime sulphur. Then just spray as needed with the harsh fungicides during the year.

This should improve 1-3. If you're happy with the nebari, I'd do the same thing except not worry about planting it on a board.

Once the wounds are healed, you're happy with the nebari, and the primary branch has sufficiently thickened, I would cut back hard in the dormant season. Like this:

View attachment 90411

At that point, put it in a bit smaller pot. After 2-3 years of strong growth the tree should respond by throwing lots of back buds. You can use this to start building branch structure.

Scott

That sounds like a plan. Thanks for the taking the time to detail it all out for me. Would it be counter productive for trunk healing and nebari to cut everything back hard during this dormant season except the primary branch? Wouldn't I be likely to get a good explosion of budding and growth on the trunk this spring that would help with those 2 things by doing that? Or am I thinking about that incorrectly?

 

[markyscott]

That sounds like a plan. Thanks for the taking the time to detail it all out for me. Would it be counter productive for trunk healing and nebari to cut everything back hard during this dormant season except the primary branch? Wouldn't I be likely to get a good explosion of budding and growth on the trunk this spring that would help with those 2 things by doing that? Or am I thinking about that incorrectly?

If you want them to thicken, let them grow. If you want them to branch, or to create movement and taper, cut back.

Personally, I would let it grow and wait to cut back. Thin the secondary branch only.

Scott

 

[GroveKeeper]

I feel like the branches are too thin for the trunk. Elms general don't have a lot of taper. They're long slender trees. I'd put it in a colander and let it grow unrestricted for a growing season. Let the branches become 2/3 the thickness of the trunk. Then cut back hard and let the secondary branches grow.

 

[sorce]

Aye....

I would put it on a board in spring and just let it go, except for keeping the top in check minimally for taper preservation....

Get those wounds healed and vigor back...

Worry about branches 2017.

Especially since, if you need more branches......those will have to catch up too...kind of nonsensical too worry about the 2 you have now!

You can almost just start it over in that case!

I still like it!

Sorce

 

[VAFisher]

If you want them to thicken, let them grow. If you want them to branch, or to create movement and taper, cut back.

Personally, I would let it grow and wait to cut back. Thin the secondary branch only.

Scott

Quick update on this little elm. I'm following the plan markyscott laid out above. I didn't get a chance to build a box for it but I did transplant it into this wider pot and added a layer of moss. I've been keeing the right branch in check and letting the left and the top go. It's just started to take off good now. I do have a new shoot emerging from the trunk but not in a usable spot. Oh well, I take that as a good sign.

 

[markyscott]

Thanks for the updat VA!

 

[sorce]

Yup...

Good plan!

Sorce

 

[LCD35]

So how is the elm doing?

 

[VAFisher]

So how is the elm doing?

Sorry, haven't been around the forum much this winter. I ditched this thread and have been including updates of this tree in a thread that includes all of my elms here: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/fishers-elms.26914/

Here is the last image I gave of the tree. It's currently leafing out again.

 

[LCD35]

Reviving necro threads is my speciality. I always get curious if a tree does, got sold, or is doing great. This one is doing great. Thanks for the reply!

 

[VAFisher]

I thought I would update this thread with pics from the missing years

2014


2015



2016

 

[VAFisher]

2017


2018


2019

 

[VAFisher]

2020


2021

 

[Mayank]

Very nice progression from the initial kinda ugly looking tree and then the somewhat contrived looking initial transformation to something that is quite pleasing to behold. Great job!

 

[Mayank]

BTW a winter silhouette photo could be cool to look at as well.

 

[VAFisher]

BTW a winter silhouette photo could be cool to look at as well.

Yeah, I'm not very good about taking those. This tree struggles with black spot every year despite my best efforts. It normally flushes in the spring and then most of those leaves will eventually turn black and mushy. I end up having to totally defoliate the tree and the black spot usually doesn't affect the 2nd flush of leaves. All that to say, I need to defoliate it soon, so I can take a naked pic.

 

[swatchpost]

Leaf size between 2020 and 2021 is just ridiculous. Really nice job. Gorgeous pot, too.
Just goes to show that time and good execution can do so much for a tree!

 

[GGB]

That black spot is a son-of-a-gun, got away from using dormant sprays but I think I will start using them again.

 

[VAFisher]

That black spot is a son-of-a-gun, got away from using dormant sprays but I think I will start using them again.

This is the only tree I have that I have fungal issues with anymore. I started using Bonide systemic granules a few years ago and it stopped all fungal issues on everything but this. I hit this one with the systemic as well as copper sprays in the fall and winter and it still shows up. The only thing I haven't done is a lime sulphur spray, but I think I'll have to try it.