Shishigashira

[AndyJ]

Hi folks,

I have a Shishigashira maple that I bought last year. I've got a picture here that shows what it was like when I bought it - it was very 2 dimensional and if you looked at it from above everything was on a single plane - the lowest branch died in its first winter with me. The two "biggest" branches on either side of the trunk made the tree look like an image a child might draw!

When it was in leaf, it didn't look too bad but the winter image was poor; I took the decision to air layer those two branches which I did this year. I was thinking that next year (2018), I could get some back budding up and down the trunk and begin the process of regrowing some branches. However ...... I had virtually no free growth last year - just one shoot that put out about 6 pairs of leaves and that was it. So I'm now thinking I've ruined the tree.

Can you guys offer me any advise? Do Shishigashira's back bud? Are they apically dominant? Can I expect some low growth? I'm thinking about heavy fertilisation next year but am worried all the growth will be at the top - if I get any!!! I've got two nice little maples and I was thinking about growing one out and keeping the other small. My other thought is about trying to thread graft these onto my trunk but in better locations.

What do you think?

(Sorry couldn't work out how to upload the photos in those neat little folders!)

Shishigashira

• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017
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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

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• AndyJ
• Oct 31, 2017

 

[Vin]

I don't know if you ruined the tree necessarily but if I remember correctly (via @MACH5) Shishis don't back bud well. I have one and have not seen any back budding this year at all. That said, maybe @MACH5 will offer some insight as he is extremely knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[MACH5]

Thanks Vin. In my experience, lion's head do not bud back with the vigor of say a regular green Japanese maple. At the very least not nearly as predictable. Very slow to develop hence the extreme rarity of seeing them as old, developed specimens outside of Japan. Worth the pursuit I think as they are uniquely beautiful but be prepared with an extra dosage of patience!

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks gents - so is it worth pursuing thread grafting new branches from the air layers that I took? If yes, I'm guessing the best time to set these off would be spring, before buds open?

 

[William N. Valavanis]

I don't think you ruined your tree. There is always hope.

If it were my tree I would wash the roots in early spring, plant in a DEEP pot and use coarse soil. That should promote adventitious new buds. Then wash the trunk with soap and water, I also add SuperThrive... .

Your two new airlayers are beautiful, and I'd train them into smaller size bonsai. They are too valuable to use for thread grafts, which I doubt you could do because they are too stiff and thick. How did you expect to get a branch through the original trunk?

If you wanted to thread graft then plant the tree in a large pot, like suggested above and wait for a couple of long new shoots. As they lengthen, remove the lower leaves and gently bend downward towards your idealized locations. Then thread graft the following season. In either way, transplant the tree.

Good luck.

Bill

 

[AndyJ]

Thank you Bill - that's encouraging I will do as you say.

As far as the thread graft is concerned, I was thinking about using the two air layers as "source trees" and grow some shoots on them that I can graft. What do you think? You mention I should plant it deep - do you mean about 6" -12" or deeper.

Thanks again,

Andy

 

[William N. Valavanis]

Andy,
I mean to plant the tree I. A deeper training pot, not to plant the tree deeper. A 6-10” deep pot should be good.

You can try to grow some thin shoots on one of your air layers for possible future thread grafts.

Bill

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Bill. Last question on this for now - should I plant the tree on a board within the bigger pot to keep the nebari on the same plane? Or just leave it to grow freely - is that what will encourage the back budding?

Many thanks for you advice.

Andy

 

[AndyJ]

Hi folks.

My shishigashira has had its roots washed, it's been repotted into a much deeper pot, trunk scrubbed and watered with super thrive- all ready for this year. I've got no buds on the trunk yet, but fingers crossed!

The canopy is starting to swell - the leading shoot has just burst and the first leaves will soon be out. I've recently been reading Mach5's post on his Sharpe's Pygmy and have made a mental note of the comments made on their about managing the growth on Shishigashira's. I think I know what this means, but could you please confirm my thoughts?

The attached images is of the topmost branch - you can see there are loads of shoots. The third image shows the buds circled that I think I should be rubbing off; is that correct? Do I leave all of the others at this stage?







Thanks all,

Andy

 

[MACH5]

Hi folks.

My shishigashira has had its roots washed, it's been repotted into a much deeper pot, trunk scrubbed and watered with super thrive- all ready for this year. I've got no buds on the trunk yet, but fingers crossed!

The canopy is starting to swell - the leading shoot has just burst and the first leaves will soon be out. I've recently been reading Mach5's post on his Sharpe's Pygmy and have made a mental note of the comments made on their about managing the growth on Shishigashira's. I think I know what this means, but could you please confirm my thoughts?

The attached images is of the topmost branch - you can see there are loads of shoots. The third image shows the buds circled that I think I should be rubbing off; is that correct? Do I leave all of the others at this stage?







Thanks all,

Andy

Andy, what is your thought about rubbing those shoots off specifically?

I would start to manage the strength by cutting back the stronger growth at the top. Rub off anything at the forks but I'd leave everything else alone for now. I would not touch at all the bottom branches and let them develop.

In my experience, I have cut back to where there are no buds and those areas died back. That is not to say that this will always be the case, but be mindful they are not as "predictable" as other maples. I think stronger areas may bud back with no issues at all but I would proceed with caution on the weaker ones.

I sold by beautiful shishi shohin a few years ago and wish now I had kept it. In the hunt now for a nice shishi once again!

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Mach. To be honest, I've had a couple of JM's that I've left the buds in a cluster like those in the image and have ended up with a real mess of shoots / branches that resemble a birds nest!! I thought I should remove these "excess" buds and just keep the main ones on each branch; is this wrong? I haven't reduced any of the top growth - should I be cutting this back now?

I've got no real ramification on my branches which is something I want to get in order to build a nice canopy but what I'm hoping for this year is back budding on the trunk so am a bit nervous of this even happening based on your experience.

 

[RobertB]

I personally wouldn't rub anything off or cut anything until the first flush has hardened off. If your wanting back budding, you need health. any cutting / rubbing when a tree is spending it's energy to grow foliage could have a small negatative impact on its overall strength and could minimize your backbudding. I do not have one of these trees. Just my thoughts.

 

[quietobserver]

Thanks Mach. To be honest, I've had a couple of JM's that I've left the buds in a cluster like those in the image and have ended up with a real mess of shoots / branches that resemble a birds nest!! I thought I should remove these "excess" buds and just keep the main ones on each branch; is this wrong? I haven't reduced any of the top growth - should I be cutting this back now?

I've got no real ramification on my branches which is something I want to get in order to build a nice canopy but what I'm hoping for this year is back budding on the trunk so am a bit nervous of this even happening based on your experience.

I’ve had the same experience with shi shi’s growing a “birds nest”, but only when growing hard in an Anderson flat or a nursery can. When growing hard I’ve had good luck rubbing/selecting buds to remove and letting the remaining grow.

Once in a confining bonsai pot it’s another matter altogether.

 

[Davidlpf]

I have one, only for one year, but in my experience, I have seen that old branches, grow extremely slowly meanwhile new shots grow really fast, if your let them.
Coarse soil (I use akadama and pomice fifty fifty), a colander, chemical fertilicer (20-20-20 is ok), and a a lot of water, increase the vigour.

I'm building the basic structure and dealing with big scars, so I don't do other thing that let it grow, all it wants. More grow, more energy, so better sealing, and I believe, more backbuding

By the way, You can see mine here,click,click if you want to.

Greetings from Spain.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks folks! I'll have a look David

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Let it grow. Select your strong Runners to graft. Cut back overly strong unuseful branches in fall. Don't expect lot of backbudding this year. If it happens it might be next year, you need this year's unhindered growth to maximize power.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Dirk, will do.

 

[River's Edge]

I would start to manage the strength by cutting back the stronger growth at the top. Rub off anything at the forks but I'd leave everything else alone for now. I would not touch at all the bottom branches and let them develop.

This is excellent advice. Handling the typical apical dominance is an important step in development.

 

[River's Edge]

If you are thinking of thread grafting or approach grafting, remember their branching is shorter internodes and becomes brittle faster than most maples. So you have an advantage with two that can be used on each other. Also they have very thin bark and scar easily so wiring branches back towards the same tree for thread grafting is tricky. I think it is better to select direction and grow a branch directly towards the place you wish to graft. Slower but then things take time.
This is an airlayer that i am experimenting with and growing some shoots back towards the trunk for grafting purposes. That is why there is quite a bit of foliage in the middle right hand side. My shisishigara seem to backbud easily on the branches, not so much on the trunks. For scale purposes the trunk is currently 1 1/2 inch in diameter at the base above the roots.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Frank. I've got the two airlayers that I took off last year which, if they put out some decent growth this year, I'll use to thread graft so you are right, this isn't advantageous. The growth in this tree has been fairly disappointing generally since I've had it so I'm hoping by following Bill's advice, I'll get some good top growth this year and, maybe, even some back budding.

Good luck with yours - keep updating us with your progress.