Shimpacu/prostrata

I do have a legit question if anyone is still reading. The apex of the tree has a problem that is rather easily fixed using wire. For some reason Gary cut the apex out a few years ago. He didn't remember why but I'm sure iit was for a good reason. Somewhere I read about a tree with a similar problem and the bonsaiest decided to graft a long jin onto the tree. If you look closely at the photo you can see where tha apex was cut off. There is also a lower branch that has to go that is about the same diameter as this " stump " I was considering jinning this branch after removal and " grafting " it to the stump something like the second pic. Is this crazy ?
 

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Not crazy, but why?

Early in my years in bonsai Kimura came out with his first book. The edges of the pages were brown due to me looking at it so often. The binding fell apart and basicly I had to throw it away. I was busy trying to make a tunuki out of anything I could get my hands on. Junipers, small pines, diciduous trees it didn't matter. Everything was fair game.

I figured if it had dead wood on it then I had fullfilled my dream of owning what Kimura had. I couldn't afford a real deadwood juniper so I tried like hell to make what I could get look like a 500 year old juniper. I failed. I succeeded with enthusiasim but I still didn't have what I wanted.

As I think about your question I am taken back 20 years to a time when I felt that whittling a small dead branch and inserting it into a hole would help me realize my dream. You came for a California juniper. You went home with a nice shimpaku and I think you might like to try and turn this tree into something a little more rugged. It is a nice tree. It doesn't look 500 years old. I think a tree like this can be manipulated to look more rugged and older. To what extent that can be done is up for debate and talent.

If it were me and I had just spent four figures on a tree I would want everything on it real. No fake jins.

Use whats there, dig deep into your soul and squint your eyes if you have to. You can do this.
 
Klytus said:
I wouldn't worry,some think deadwood junipers are ugly and not worth bothering with.
Click to expand...


You know a member can click on ones name and look at the last 20 or more posts of the person selected. I checked you out. You have not said one constructive thing in almost every post you have made.

May I be so bold as to ask, what is your agenda? Are you really this cranky?
 
Other than the last 2 posts, This has been perhaps the best post I have ever seen. Great material, I must say I was shocked at the price tag. If this is over 1K I wonder how much those monsters they farm over in Japan are worth, in the ground?

All you guys, Smoke and Rick and whatnot, great and inspiring feedback for this guy. You guys inspired me, even though I don't have a 1K Shimp. I'd be too scared to do anything with it for a long time.
 
Now you're scaring me Mark. I still can't believe I did this................. Maybe I'll just wait till April and take my tree on a little trip to Oklahoma City....just me and the tree ..........

BTW Mark , thanks.

Al , I think you're right. It's gonna have enough dead wood without messin with it and adding stuff that wasn't there to begin with.
 
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Remember the old saying, run what ya brung, or set in the stands and shut the f*#k up and watch, nice tree my friend, bring it up and let the man bring out the best, or I bet you can do it justice. Hell of a nice tree. Just keep me away from it !!!

keep it green,
Harry
 
Dwight said:
Anyway Rick , I think you're absolutely right. I can see what I think the tree wants to be but without much experience my paranoia acts up a lot with this tree.
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:):):) (for Will) ... this is what I was alluring to in my direct succinct way. Paranoia is a good thing, second guessing yourself is a good thing, questioning your own judgement is a good thing, listen to "that birdie". Caution is not a bad thing, caution and paranoia can be a friend when under control. It teaches you patience and looking for alternatives. As I never said not to do a twin trunk, (because most folks that see a twin, want to develop a twin) all I am saying there, look past that, does tree have more to offer than what meets the eye. One thing I have learned over time, branches can be manipulated to where we want them to go ((more or less) a great example is some of Peter Thali's work)). Take for example a Procumbens, most people turn them into cascades (myself included) because that was the obvious. After watching many practitioners here (internet) we now look, have learned to look at raw stock from a differing perspective.

If an idea does not come to me, I just wait until one comes, it will. But as Will said, create what you saw when you acquired the tree. The tree drew you in, what was that vision. You discussed at length the daughter... we only have a 2D version of what you can see.

WRT Oklahoma, that would be a solution, but not the SOLUTION :D:D:D
 
If it were mine.... there would be no question in my mind about keeping both trunks... they are marvelous. The tree is well grown out, so there doesn't appear to be a need to wait for additional options. If the tree's basal flare and nebari are acceptable as you have presented to us, then my process for addressing the tree is pretty simple...

First thing before all... I would carve the deadwood on the tree... that dead face has LOTs of potential. Then I would look through the foliage on both trees for redundent and bar branches... On the ones where you have no doubt... stub them, or jin them out to the ends. If there are a bunch that need to come out, try and balance it out. Making sure to at least taper the ends so it doesn't look silly until the wood can dry and I can seriously work it over. The nice part of it is that by leaving nice jins in the canopy, you have opportunities to see through the tree (because it's entirely too dense)... and still see something interesting. Then I wire it out.

Now... this sounds like a fast process, and sometimes it is... but sometimes it's not. I always advise moving slow to examine all your options... UNLESS you are paralyzed. Then I advocate a shot of liquid courage, a pruning saw, and moonlight. (I'm not even kidding).... When I've had something beautiful that I couldn't get myself to prune, I would force myself to stop second guessing (which seems to always happen in the middle of the night on a full moon)... and I would just go cut. It may seem like a "blind" way to go at it... but in truth it isn't... you spend so many hours contemplating it you know what it looks like even in the dark. So you just decide to shut off the voice in your head and trust what you know... and you just cut. Then once "decisions" have been made... the rest is easy.

I think you acquired a marvelous tree... can't wait to see what you do with it.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia
 
Oh... and one more thing.... (and this has happened to me before)... If a tree is so perfectly laid out that there are no "obviously" redundent branches or bar branches... I just kill a branch anyway. Because there is too much foliar mass, and not enough breaks. And I don't just kill one... on a tree of this size I would kill whole ones, and partials.

V
 
The yew I posted is a recent example of this methodology. It works. Now I did not have the balance of mature foliar mass that you do... so I have no where near the amount of jinned branches in the canopy that it will... a great many branchlets which have been given movement and placement will in the end be grown out simply for the purpose of being jinned.

It is often scary... but my teacher once said to me, when I was working on one of his trees... "If a girl were brave, she would remove one of those crowns..." and I so I said "Fine." and promptly cut out an apex which was redundant, and jinned the stub. He had been developing that tree for 20 years when I worked on it. I spent hours reworking the tree, much of it was repositioning and removal of what had been done. It was more compact and defined when I was finished, and he was pleased.

So I mumble under my breath from time to time... "If a girl were brave..."

Art requires more than just a vision or desire to evoke a feeling... it takes courage and knowledge... the lack of it will only hurt your efforts in the art. Fear is the killer of creation. Whether someone creates something good or bad ends up being dependant on their inherent vision and knowledge. But to lack the courage to do, is to create nothing.

So... if a man were brave....


Yours most kindly,

Victrinia
 
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Hey Dwight....

Miss Vic has given you good advice EXCEPT killing branches......don't even think of that until you have thinned the foliage on every branch and see exactly what you are dealing with. The image will change when you do that. Once you have that done THEN look at what you can eliminate and what you want to jin. Remember jinning whole branches gives us an illusion of a juvenile tree....short jins and stubas result from years of wear and abuse thus giving us a feeling of age.

You don't have enough experience to just go in and cut out whole branches just yet.....that come in time and when you are up to that don't do it on $1000+ material.

This is your tree, do what you want and do what you see and don't be in a hurry by any means. Personally, knowing where you are in bonsai I think your best learning experience and the best for the tree would be to visit Harrys house when Marco is around. Until then study it and sketch ideas down on paper and show those to Marco. He will analyze them and let you know his thoughts....you will learn tons watching how he works on trees. I assure you of this.

If this was a $300 tree then I would say cut away since that isn't much of an investment....but you took a big step here..... which is great!

I will have more to say when I get the time to come back.

See Ya!
 
It would indeed be bad advice if I came off as sounding indiscriminate. My apologies for that...

Thinning the branches is very helpful if you do not have a a good sense of what is going on to be sure... thank you for adding that Jason... sometimes it is easy to presume that someone would understand that you shouldn't cut something if you can't see its value.

I would also comment that this tree will need to lose about 60% or better of it's foliar mass if it wishes to be considered a truely aged tree. To jin a branch and leave structure is to acknowledge what it will be... a very beautiful mature tree... Now your big juniper... THAT is a grandmother tree which wouldn't support the notion of a structral jin. (gawd I love that tree... wish it was mine... ;))

Most of my motiviation was to provide a frame of mind and process more than actual steps for this particular tree...


Kindest regards,

Victrinia
 
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Victrinia Ensor said:
Oh... and one more thing.... (and this has happened to me before)... If a tree is so perfectly laid out that there are no "obviously" redundent branches or bar branches... I just kill a branch anyway. Because there is too much foliar mass, and not enough breaks. And I don't just kill one... on a tree of this size I would kill whole ones, and partials.

V
Click to expand...

Reading back... I think this is what sounded indiscriminate... That comment was designed to be both truthful and shocking. Mostly because people hesitate to add deadwood to what seems to be a "perfect" tree. But a perfect canopy is not how I, or many others, define a perfect tree... so I do suggest being bold enough to dismantel the work of years... by killing a well placed branch which will compliment other areas of deadwood on a tree, and add character to it's image.

But it would only be done with careful consideration about how best to balance and define the tree. There is nothing indiscriminate about it. ;)

Kindest regards,

Victrinia
 
(No offense to anyone in particular, but)

Hey, Dwight! - Do you have enough conflicting ideas to help you decide yet? :D
 
Ok , now that you guys have scared the hell out of me here's what I think I'm gonna do. NOTHING !!!!!!!! Well not exactly nothing. I've spent much of today sitting by the tree and conversing quietly with it ( Vic will understand ) and while doing this I've noticed it has a bunch of jins that Gary had already started. One is just below the apex. I pushed some branches around and can see how this and other jins can be exposed without really removing much but foilage , i.e. no branches larger than 1/8" need be removed. Most of what obviously needs to be removed are the little interior brannches with very little foilage that just look messy and a bunch of the heavy foilage , especially at the top of the tree. In other words it needs to be cleaned up and thined. It is so compact that even after hours of looking there are still some areas I havn't really looked at.July will be dedicated to cleaning bark. I'm thinking that maybe starting Sept. I'll begin this process of thinning and do just a little at a time so as not to stress the tree. I've already removed most of the downward facing stuff ( per Gary's instructions ) but even that has taken two days of very slow work and everything I removed fit in my hand.

Gary and his Dad did such a good job of preparing this tree over the years it looks like it will need very little in the way of restructuring. All the major branches seem to be in the right place and they are mostly horizontal or already facing down. I still plan to visit Harry in April if I can afford it and hopefully Marco won't scream at me. .

BTW Klytus , this thing is soooo healthy I'd have to go completely nuts to kill it. I've already done that with one tree and don't plan on doing it with this guy.
 
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