Scots pine yellow needles

[nover18]

I'm struggling to keep this Scots pine healthy. My issue for the past 3 years is that the previous years needles continue to turn yellow (tip first) and drop off. This makes it extremely leggy and difficult to use any back buds. I originally thought that my soil mix was not draining properly so put it into a deep pond basket with 1:1:1 akadama, pumice, lava in 2018. The spring of 2019 the same thing happened, so I thought this was more fungal and I applied Copper fungicide every 3 weeks and put Bonide Infuse systemic fungicide granules on soil surface. This year started off strong and even started to see back budding but sure enough tips started to yellow and work towards the base of the needle . I also have another Scots that is extremely green and retaining needles from previous year. Both are treated the same and get full sun from ~730AM to 530 PM. Any idea what could be causing this?

 

[TomB]

Does this one have any field or nursery soil in the centre of the root ball, compared to your other one that is doing better?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I'm guessing the issue is water related.
Some of my pines show similar discoloration if I over water them, but not to this extent.

First thing I would do is compare my own watering habits to what a chopstick says; I water once every two days, but my chopstick tells me that the soil is still moist after those two days. So I started juggling with another day of not watering and most of them perked up again within a month.

If you can rule out the watering, I would suspect either air pockets in the soil or some kind of pH issue that's blocking nutrient uptake. But over watering is way more likely.

 

[nover18]

Does this one have any field or nursery soil in the centre of the root ball, compared to your other one that is doing better?

no nursery soil. This was grown from seed so it's been in good soil for past 3-4 years.

 

[nover18]

I'm guessing the issue is water related.
Some of my pines show similar discoloration if I over water them, but not to this extent.

First thing I would do is compare my own watering habits to what a chopstick says; I water once every two days, but my chopstick tells me that the soil is still moist after those two days. So I started juggling with another day of not watering and most of them perked up again within a month.

If you can rule out the watering, I would suspect either air pockets in the soil or some kind of pH issue that's blocking nutrient uptake. But over watering is way more likely.

I've used the chopstick method in the past but don't find it very reliable. Must be my brand of chopstick? I do usually dig about an inch or two down to see if the soil is moist or drying out. I only water when looks like it's starting to dry out. I think these are sensitive to overwatering as well but sometimes, especially in the spring, the rain can't be prevented. I might start playing with keeping them out of the rain for the upcoming spring and see if that helps. Also, wondering if the pH issue would block nutrient uptake to year old needles but continue the newly emerging needles green. Thoughts?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

In the spring I see none of those issues, due to dormancy and low temps they hardly do anything. Those issues don't persist in my yard at least.

New growth would be green in a nitrogen blockade, because the tree is draining nitrogen from those older needles, that's why they turn yellow. This almost always happens from the underside going upwards. But scots pines can take almost every soil type with relative ease, so I think over watering is more likely than a soil pH issue. Over watering can cause ambiguous signs, like we're seeing here.

I took a better look at your pictures and I'd like to know if you're fertilizing. In heavily over dosing nutrients, similar things might happen due to the roots burning up from the salt stress.

Keep in mind that I'm speculating here, hoping to help you find a cause and solve it. I haven't seen extreme cases like this, so I'm just looking for pieces so that we can make a puzzle and complete it.

 

[nover18]

In the spring I see none of those issues, due to dormancy and low temps they hardly do anything. Those issues don't persist in my yard at least.

New growth would be green in a nitrogen blockade, because the tree is draining nitrogen from those older needles, that's why they turn yellow. This almost always happens from the underside going upwards. But scots pines can take almost every soil type with relative ease, so I think over watering is more likely than a soil pH issue. Over watering can cause ambiguous signs, like we're seeing here.

I took a better look at your pictures and I'd like to know if you're fertilizing. In heavily over dosing nutrients, similar things might happen due to the roots burning up from the salt stress.

Keep in mind that I'm speculating here, hoping to help you find a cause and solve it. I haven't seen extreme cases like this, so I'm just looking for pieces so that we can make a puzzle and complete it.

interesting on the nitrogen blockade. I have been fertilizing rather heavily with Biogold (2 locations ~1.5 Tablespoon in each location at 4 week intervals. Same for my other Scots. I'm assuming watering is the issue or some sort of root issue. Going to really monitor the watering on this tree. Next time I also think will do 2 parts pumice to 1:1: akdama and lava.

 

[TomB]

It does sound like a watering / root zone issue. Keeping it drier could help. I've found pond baskets can actually stay pretty wet, especially if they're not fully colonised by roots, or placed directly on the bench (I see you have yours up on slats).

 

[nover18]

It does sound like a watering / root zone issue. Keeping it drier could help. I've found pond baskets can actually stay pretty wet, especially if they're not fully colonised by roots, or placed directly on the bench (I see you have yours up on slats).

yes, i've noticed that as well so one of the reasons it's up off the bench. Just a bit more oxygen for the bottom of the pot.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

interesting on the nitrogen blockade. I have been fertilizing rather heavily with Biogold (2 locations ~1.5 Tablespoon in each location at 4 week intervals. Same for my other Scots. I'm assuming watering is the issue or some sort of root issue. Going to really monitor the watering on this tree. Next time I also think will do 2 parts pumice to 1:1: akdama and lava.

Hmm that doesn't sound very heavy.

I stopped using akadama a couple years ago and it cut the amount of over watered pines in half without me changing my regimen.
Then I started watering less and all but my JBP turned back green.

All things into consideration, I think the diagnosis points towards prolonged wetness of the soil and everything that comes with that.

 

[nover18]

Hmm that doesn't sound very heavy.

I stopped using akadama a couple years ago and it cut the amount of over watered pines in half without me changing my regimen.
Then I started watering less and all but my JBP turned back green.

All things into consideration, I think the diagnosis points towards prolonged wetness of the soil and everything that comes with that.

no akadama? what do you use now for pines?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sifting your soil to eliminate fines is important. A media with uniform particle size is more difficult to over water.

Adding organic fertilizer "loose" on the surface of soils can plug up drainage, and if soil media has not been sifted to a uniform particle size, the organic fertilizer can compound the problem. This is the reason many use tea bags and other items to keep the fertilizer from mixing into the soil.

Go for a particle size 3/16 inch being the smallest, 5/16th the largest, see if that helps. An open mix is near impossible to over water.

 

[nover18]

Sifting your soil to eliminate fines is important. A media with uniform particle size is more difficult to over water.

Adding organic fertilizer "loose" on the surface of soils can plug up drainage, and if soil media has not been sifted to a uniform particle size, the organic fertilizer can compound the problem. This is the reason many use tea bags and other items to keep the fertilizer from mixing into the soil.

Go for a particle size 3/16 inch being the smallest, 5/16th the largest, see if that helps. An open mix is near impossible to over water.

yes, soil was sifted to eliminate fines. Soil size ranges from 3/16" to 1/4". I also removed top inch or so of soil and replaced in fall after done fertilizing with organics last year.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I use a mix of lava rock, pumice and granite. All equal parts.
It stays damp longer than I expected. Two to three days in the spring, one to two days in summer.
That means my akadama probably took 7-10 days to dry. No wonder I got terrible results from the stuff.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Then I really don't know what the cause of the problem is.

 

[Paradox]

I'm struggling to keep this Scots pine healthy. My issue for the past 3 years is that the previous years needles continue to turn yellow (tip first) and drop off. This makes it extremely leggy and difficult to use any back buds. I originally thought that my soil mix was not draining properly so put it into a deep pond basket with 1:1:1 akadama, pumice, lava in 2018. The spring of 2019 the same thing happened, so I thought this was more fungal and I applied Copper fungicide every 3 weeks and put Bonide Infuse systemic fungicide granules on soil surface. This year started off strong and even started to see back budding but sure enough tips started to yellow and work towards the base of the needle . I also have another Scots that is extremely green and retaining needles from previous year. Both are treated the same and get full sun from ~730AM to 530 PM. Any idea what could be causing this?

View attachment 302900View attachment 302901View attachment 302902

It kinda looks fungal to me but hard to tell with out a close up of the needles. We had a very humid year last year so there could be alot of fungal issues this year.
Many fungi infect needles one year but you dont see the effects of the infection until the next year.
You said you applied copper fungicide every 3 weeks.

When did you start appling it and when did you stop?

If its not fungal then its got to be a root/watering issue.

I also have scots pines and use a 1:1:1 akadama, pumice and lava and I dont see this on my trees. Mine get watered every day during the hottest months (Mid June-Mid September) then every other day in May-June; Sept-Nov/Dec. I will shut off the water system if we are slated to get 0.5 inches of rain or more. I have never seen an overwatering issue with that mix and that watering regimen. I dont use pond baskets but I do use a plastic basic lined with embroidery screen from a craft store that is the same sort of depth and I dont see that staying that wet.

 

[leatherback]

First thing I would do is compare my own watering habits to what a chopstick says; I water once every two days, but my chopstick tells me that the soil is still moist after those two days. So I started juggling with another day of not watering and most of them perked up again within a month.

How does that compare to your say, junipers and maples, frequency wise? I struggle with pines and this might give me some idea

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have no maples @leatherback. My beeches and chestnut love daily waterings.
My pines in tiny pots love daily waterings too, but it's OK if I skip a day now during spring. The ones in bigger pots can easily go without watering for a day or two. Mugo and my personal nemesis the JBP seem to love a bit of drought.
Compared to junipers it's almost equal, but then again they seem to love daily watering and I have just once over watered a juniper. I think junipers are easier to care for.

If frequency is an issue, now's the time to experiment a little; we have elongating candles that rely heavily on the turgidity of the tree. If they go floppy or soft, then it's time to water. Usually it doesn't leave lasting damage to let them go floppy once or twice (more often will lead to dieback); water them well when that softness happens and a day and a half later the candles should be back upright. When they're upright again, it's almost time for the next watering. It's a risky technique though, I can't really recommend it if you can't have a look twice a day.

Chop sticks or satéprikkers near the root base work better.

 

[sorce]

only water when looks like it's starting to dry out

That's what's wrong, I garauntee.

You can't allow pieces of pond basketed soil to dry, or hydrophobic properties begin to invade.

Please weigh it. Water it like normal, and weigh it again.
Then sit it in water for a couple hours and weigh it again.

I'll bet the first jump is ounces.
The next pounds.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm struggling to keep this Scots pine healthy. My issue for the past 3 years is that the previous years needles continue to turn yellow (tip first) and drop off. This makes it extremely leggy and difficult to use any back buds. I originally thought that my soil mix was not draining properly so put it into a deep pond basket with 1:1:1 akadama, pumice, lava in 2018. The spring of 2019 the same thing happened, so I thought this was more fungal and I applied Copper fungicide every 3 weeks and put Bonide Infuse systemic fungicide granules on soil surface. This year started off strong and even started to see back budding but sure enough tips started to yellow and work towards the base of the needle . I also have another Scots that is extremely green and retaining needles from previous year. Both are treated the same and get full sun from ~730AM to 530 PM. Any idea what could be causing this?

View attachment 302900View attachment 302901View attachment 302902

Tree is not getting enough water, not only are the needles brown they are desiccated. How often do you water.