Scots Pine Mother / Daughter

[AndyJ]

Doesn't show in the picture, but there are several curves in it. Think it might be a bit two dimensional though, might have to add one or two on that side.....

Any thoughts on the candles / needles?

 

[penumbra]

I think you have a lot of potential and your splitting the seedling is not something I would have thought of. But I have a question about what exactly constitutes the mother daughter bonsai configuration. I may be wrong, and if I am that is fine, but I thought a mother daughter bonsai consisted of two trees with separate identities and not one with two trunks.
Am I right? Or am I splitting hairs too finely?

 

[penumbra]

Looks like I am wrong. It is defined as a sokan with two trunks from the same nebari. with one trunk significantly larger than the other. I was surprised to find this as I had always envisioned a mother and daughter as two separate trees. Perhaps the definition is broader than I thought. I would like to hear from others on this.

 

[AndyJ]

I didn't know if splitting the seedling like this would work so am quite pleased it did. Any ideas on what's going on with the candles / needles though Penumbra?

 

[penumbra]

It looks to me like its putting its energy into making new buds if I am seeing it right.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Have to agree lower trunk needs more movement. Unless making formal upright tree straight sections undesirable.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I put some of my scots pines in the wrong soil, they've been too wet for the entire year. Their candles look like yours; there are some needles on the tips, but the rest hasn't developed at all and looks the same as they did during the extension phase. I'm not expecting them to continue developing; it's way too late for that now.
Could be root damage too, but the response I know from scots pines is that they just develop way slower and have smaller needles. So I think this is a case of over watering.

 

[AndyJ]

Ok folks, I’ve bowed to pressure and added a couple of bends on the other side. Here are a few more pictures which I think are better quality and show a few gentle curves! Really shows up the areas where I was hoping for growth. Couple of clearer pictures of the strange behaviour in the candles. @TomB and @Paulpash - have you ever had this in any of your Scots pines? Any tips and advice?

Thanks all.

Andy

 

[Paradox]

You repotted it this year.

The slow growth is a reaction to repotting. It is not "strange behavior".
It is sulking from the repot.

It is the wrong time of year to wire a pine. That should be done in the fall, NOT the summer.
The reason is because you can cause the bark to slip on the tree while bending.
This can kill branches because you disrupt the flow of water during the hottest part of the year when the tree needs water transport the most and the tree cant heal it fast enough to overcome it. Also, you can accidentally knock off newer, tender shoots when trying to wire.

Leave it alone and let it recover before you overwork it to death.
Do nothing else to this tree this year, but feed and water, period!

.

 

[Paulpash]

So has it actually extended candles or are these tufts them? If it's just pushed these then it ain't strong. No pruning, just leave it be.

 

[TomB]

My suspicion would be that the tree is just very weak, because it has been worked a lot. If your soil was too wet your old needles would probably be yellowing. I would do nothing to it for the next couple of years: water and fertilise as normal, remove any wire that’s cutting in, but otherwise leave it to regain strength. Consider doing the other half-bare-root in spring 2022, and maybe thinning out the top, if the tree pushes well in 2021. For now it just needs some time to regain vigour.

 

[River's Edge]

Ok folks, I’ve bowed to pressure and added a couple of bends on the other side. Here are a few more pictures which I think are better quality and show a few gentle curves! Really shows up the areas where I was hoping for growth. Couple of clearer pictures of the strange behaviour in the candles. @TomB and @Paulpash - have you ever had this in any of your Scots pines? Any tips and advice?

Thanks all.

Andy

Unlikely that the tree is remaining too wet in the pond basket and substrate visible! leave the tree to recover for the rest of this season and next before working! Simply keep an eye on the wire that it does not cut in too much. Unlikely that will happen this year or even next. if it does than the tree is stronger than it appears at this point.
I do not think anything is wrong, just the effect of major reduction in 2018, pruning, wiring and repot, followed by wiring. Wiring occurring in the summer will be more damaging than if done during the winter so that adds to the overall.
The tree is young and should bounce back well over time.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks folks. I've done nothing more on this than some of my other pines so was just wondering why its behaviour was different. I've not had a tree sulk after repotting before so don't know the symptoms - if this is what happens, I know what to look for now.

I'll just leave it be for now then and see what it does, Thanks all

 

[Potawatomi13]

Unlikely that the tree is remaining too wet in the pond basket and substrate visible! leave the tree to recover for the rest of this season and next before working! Simply keep an eye on the wire that it does not cut in too much. Unlikely that will happen this year or even next. if it does than the tree is stronger than it appears at this point.
I do not think anything is wrong, just the effect of major reduction in 2018, pruning, wiring and repot, followed by wiring. Wiring occurring in the summer will be more damaging than if done during the winter so that adds to the overall.
The tree is young and should bounce back well over time.

A couple years ago I met Gary Wood. Converse about Limber Pine ensued during which he told me about first of July(after harden off)was the perfect time to wire Limber Pine. Is it unique from other pines?

 

[Paulpash]

Thanks folks. I've done nothing more on this than some of my other pines so was just wondering why its behaviour was different. I've not had a tree sulk after repotting before so don't know the symptoms - if this is what happens, I know what to look for now.

I'll just leave it be for now then and see what it does, Thanks all

Knowing how to read a tree - it's vigor and therefore health, is probably one of the most valuable skills in all bonsai.

 

[River's Edge]

A couple years ago I met Gary Wood. Converse about Limber Pine ensued during which he told me about first of July(after harden off)was the perfect time to wire Limber Pine. Is it unique from other pines?

I don't know about limber pine, never had one, but just the name seems to imply it would be easy to wire! I would follow Gary's advice.
With conifers there are some species that react to wiring at different times more so than others. Ezo Spruce reacts poorly to winter wiring, seems to prefer late august, early September. Sub Alpine fir respond poorly to wiring in august/September. For most wiring I prefer to choose times when new growth has hardened off and any new buds are readily apparent. Also I tend to pick later in the dormant period to time the healing of cracks and fissures with a new growth period.
My experience has been that wiring method and type of wire can affect the outcome as well! The softer bark species with shorter needles need adaptive techniques to limit the needle damage.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Screw taper is what I'm saying!

Further, to get pleasing taper with sacrifice branches on this particular tree is foolish.

The slender taper that will come with lack of branches should be enough, and will never leave her bulgy and ugly.

Taper is everything till it isn't.

Of course, this is only the vision in my head.

Sorce

What about an inverted literati?

 

[sorce]

I've done nothing more on this than some of my other pines so was just wondering why its behaviour was different

Was your repotting time different for the others?

Was this the first? (Earliest, saw frost, cold, etc?)

Dates?

I feel like it's a spring repotting problem.

These trees that grow in spring and sit around growing roots the rest of the season should be repotted while they're just sitting around growing roots.

Sorce

 

[Potawatomi13]

I don't know about limber pine, never had one, but just the name seems to imply it would be easy to wire! I would follow Gary's advice.
With conifers there are some species that react to wiring at different times more so than others. Ezo Spruce reacts poorly to winter wiring, seems to prefer late august, early September. Sub Alpine fir respond poorly to wiring in august/September. For most wiring I prefer to choose times when new growth has hardened off and any new buds are readily apparent. Also I tend to pick later in the dormant period to time the healing of cracks and fissures with a new growth period.
My experience has been that wiring method and type of wire can affect the outcome as well! The softer bark species with shorter needles need adaptive techniques to limit the needle damage.

Thank you. Normally late Winter is when I've read this is done. It struck me strangely this time remembering what Gary said. This week just did minor wire on 2 JBP and major bending/double notch on Lodgepole pine. Seems that in past time havn't paid much attention to time of year but just did when tree wasn't growing and weather was agreeable.

 

[Potawatomi13]

What about an inverted literati?

Literati can have inverse as well as other not by the rules uniquenesses. Just one more reason to love.