Satsuki 2nd attempt, advice much appreciated!

[kale]

I have no experience with drip systems. Yes, azaleas prefer to have a thorough watering followed by some time where the roots can partially dry. They like water, but like all rhododendron species they are susceptible to root rot fungi, likely because of their fine roots. So they don't like stale water in their pot. So as a permanent water mechanism, a drip system is not a good idea, assuming it literally drips at a constant rate.

But as this is a special precaution for a 1 week trip, should be fine.

Hi @Harunobu! Yes, they actually get watered every 6 hours for 3 minutes basically. The sprinklers on them spray a stream of water, quite plentifully too! But yeah, actually today I think that watering schedule is excessive. I think it'll be ideal for temps in the 90's but today was only 75. I wanted to get it setup in advance so I can see how they work before leaving for the trip. The sprinkler controller is awesome though. It's by Rachio, and it's a smart system so I can control it while I'm gone! I suppose I could keep an eye on the weather at home and adjust accordingly. If only I could have a camera on them and like a moisture meter too.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

They like water, but like all rhododendron species they are susceptible to root rot fungi, likely because of their fine roots. So they don't like stale water in their pot. So as a permanent water mechanism, a drip system is not a good idea, assuming it literally drips at a constant rate.

I do use an automatic watering system when I’m gone, but it’s not a drip system.... and the most I use it is twice a day for 3 mins each, but rarely so due to that bench’s position and the climatology here.

You are correct, it’s the flushing throughout the pot that’s important. But also, given proper fertilization, the actual wetness of the media you are using. They should be In a soil that leaves them moist rather then wet.... hard to tell?

If there was one thing I would like to recommend to you is to slip one the azaleas out of the pots they are in.... and look at the condition of the soil on the very bottom. If it’s soaked, you have drainage issues.... if not a-ok. I think you might.

This is IMHO only... and here is my reasoning, I’ve got a couple wet loving garden plants in pots like this and for me, the pots, although nicely looking, are not constructed for azaleas . They usually only have one drain hole and create wet spots around the edges of the bottom and sides, also the roots are forced to grow inwards, clustering up the bottom of the pot even more then a normal azalea situation... But that’s just me. I often use rectangular or square plastic training pots and drill 7-8 extra holes in the bottom of these. However those pots may be perfect for your area.

(btw: Plastic pot’s can be a big no no for some purists due to root overheating - although I feel placing the azaleas in places they get the appropriate amount of sun... I.e. Avoiding too much heating of the pot and ensuring morning sun and the last couple hours before sundown overcomes that Issue.... but then again I live in the PacNW,)

good luck,
DSD sends
PS Here’s a Chitose Nisiki that will soon be repotted in a rectangular training pot. Planted high on purpose.

 

[bunjin]

Yes, the azalea is from Nuccios. They should be able to ID the cultivars if you have good flowering photos. Fertilize only lightly, if at all, since you are using a lot of organics. I have been able to get thick trunks by either planting in the ground or going up to very large cut down containers(about 20" dia.). I find the Korean brown plastic pots that you can buy on eBay are very excellent intermediate-sized growing containers. Increase pot size only if the azalea is root bound in the existing container.

 

[kale]

Yes, the azalea is from Nuccios. They should be able to ID the cultivars if you have good flowering photos. Fertilize only lightly, if at all, since you are using a lot of organics. I have been able to get thick trunks by either planting in the ground or going up to very large cut down containers(about 20" dia.). I find the Korean brown plastic pots that you can buy on eBay are very excellent intermediate-sized growing containers. Increase pot size only if the azalea is root bound in the existing container.View attachment 307987View attachment 307986

Daaang, nice job! Unfortunately the ground isn't an option in my climate But I do understand I'm in it for the long haul if I can keep them alive long enough! Yes, I'd say my soil is 1/3rd organics. I am using the tea bag method for fertilizing, which IMO could be considered light. You've done a great job on yours! How long has it taken you to achieve that height? I think mine are about half as tall as yours as they stand now.

 

[kale]

I do use an automatic watering system when I’m gone, but it’s not a drip system.... and the most I use it is twice a day for 3 mins each, but rarely so due to that bench’s position and the climatology here.

You are correct, it’s the flushing throughout the pot that’s important. But also, given proper fertilization, the actual wetness of the media you are using. They should be In a soil that leaves them moist rather then wet.... hard to tell?

If there was one thing I would like to recommend to you is to slip one the azaleas out of the pots they are in.... and look at the condition of the soil on the very bottom. If it’s soaked, you have drainage issues.... if not a-ok. I think you might.

This is IMHO only... and here is my reasoning, I’ve got a couple wet loving garden plants in pots like this and for me, the pots, although nicely looking, are not constructed for azaleas . They usually only have one drain hole and create wet spots around the edges of the bottom and sides, also the roots are forced to grow inwards, clustering up the bottom of the pot even more then a normal azalea situation... But that’s just me. I often use rectangular or square plastic training pots and drill 7-8 extra holes in the bottom of these. However those pots may be perfect for your area.

(btw: Plastic pot’s can be a big no no for some purists due to root overheating - although I feel placing the azaleas in places they get the appropriate amount of sun... I.e. Avoiding too much heating of the pot and ensuring morning sun and the last couple hours before sundown overcomes that Issue.... but then again I live in the PacNW,)

good luck,
DSD sends
PS Here’s a Chitose Nisiki that will soon be repotted in a rectangular training pot. Planted high on purpose.
View attachment 307662

Yes, I probably could've used more drainage holes in mine. I don't think I could pull them out without making a mess since they are freshly repotted in there. The pots are clay so hopefully they'll stay nice and cool for em!

 

[bunjin]

Daaang, nice job! Unfortunately the ground isn't an option in my climate But I do understand I'm in it for the long haul if I can keep them alive long enough! Yes, I'd say my soil is 1/3rd organics. I am using the tea bag method for fertilizing, which IMO could be considered light. You've done a great job on yours! How long has it taken you to achieve that height? I think mine are about half as tall as yours as they stand now.

That one is Minato and is 26" tall, and about a 2 1/2" trunk. Years ago I asked Nuccio what cultivar puts on girth fast and Minato was the answer. Actually Minato will get to over 3 feet in height in approx. 3 years under ideal conditions. It is one of the few cultivars that I actually shorten frequently. The other one is Hikaru Genji. When you are looking at Nuccio's catalog, the key descriptions are "vigorous and upright" if you want rapid growth and height.

 

[kale]

That one is Minato and is 26" tall, and about a 2 1/2" trunk. Years ago I asked Nuccio what cultivar puts on girth fast and Minato was the answer. Actually Minato will get to over 3 feet in height in approx. 3 years under ideal conditions. It is one of the few cultivars that I actually shorten frequently. The other one is Hikaru Genji. When you are looking at Nuccio's catalog, the key descriptions are "vigorous and upright" if you want rapid growth and height.

I did talk to the same guy both times Ive ordered, a year apart. Wish I could remember his name. Both times I asked for an ideal cultivar/specimen for bonsai and both times he joked “well we don’t wanna make it too easy on ya!” Lol. Very nice guy! I wish I wouldve asked for growth rate and upright like you said. I asked about cold hardiness though but he wasnt sure. Obviously you lucky folks in CA dont have to worry about that!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

That one is Minato and is 26" tall, and about a 2 1/2" trunk. Years ago I asked Nuccio what cultivar puts on girth fast and Minato was the answer. Actually Minato will get to over 3 feet in height in approx. 3 years under ideal conditions. It is one of the few cultivars that I actually shorten frequently. The other one is Hikaru Genji. When you are looking at Nuccio's catalog, the key descriptions are "vigorous and upright" if you want rapid growth and height.

So it would be either Jim or Tom you chatted with at Nuccios. Next time you call, have questions ready for them and feel free to ask them the list, like wintering over your satsukis. They are most helpful.

btw: @bunjin is oh so correct! Use that catalog to the max. It took me a couple months to assimilate the ramifications of all the information packed in there. Nuccios catalog and their descriptive and blooming information on azaleas figure prominently in Callaham's Satsuki Azalea book.

My first year received from Nuccios Minato is taking off really fast too, but so is my Chitose Niskiki which is labelled at Slow to Medium spreading growth. It might be the Osmocote Plus and the Miracid I toss at them. I'm so done with tea bags and Bio Gold this year. (I'd highly recommend you stick with your regime though.) Although I toss HollyTone etc. at all my in ground rhodies and non satsuki azaleas. I guess some of the organic vs commercial fertilizer mantras rub my science background the wrong way.

I know, hearsay! But it really seems to works well coupled with the kanuma/chopped sphagnum media I use.

Go figure!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Here is an update a year later. First pic from unboxing them the day they arrived, and pics today. Planted in peat moss/lava/haydite. Sorry for the distracting boxwoods in the background.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Great! Now’s the time to think about stying'
cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Great! Now’s the time to think about stying'
cheers
DSD sends

I am torn between styling now and letting them grow bigger!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You might chip away at your styling… eliminating any three or more branch junctions to twos, shave the wounds smooth and cut paste. This is the first and hardest thing to do for me.

Since many of my last fall acquisitions were left to grow strong through the present flowering period, I’m facing this step for a goodly number of Satsuki in the next 6 weeks

The next step would be to take the flowering terminals back to two. That’s easier for me as I end up taking at least 5-10 cuttings per tree… so at least I feel like these have not gone to waste!

It’s a trade off, yet not so hard once you recall that all the remaining tree strength is now focused on the remaining branches, making these grow faster… and next year you don’t have such hard choices

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Another year in the books. Still not much growth though. This is my 3rd summer with them. Just trying to bulk up the trunks! I guess I need to prune the lower branches after they flower to get them going taller? The one on the far right was repotted into kanuma back in March due to poor drainage and also almost lost it last summer when its sprinkler was knocked over and not watering it. It seems to like the kanuma so the other 2 will get theirs next spring.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Really nice flowers on that first tree! Your azaleas do look very healthy.

A couple thoughts.

It’s highly likely these azaleas were establishing their roots and filling their containers and have stalled. Check to see if these are root bound, if so slip pot in another, larger, container. I use Tokoname grow pots a lot, uppotting each time they fill the container. Deep, cheap, wide, tougher then terra cotta pots and come in multiple sizes. (The usually come with wire holes, but I bore them out with a diamond hole cutter a bit bigger for drainage too). the first year.

Trunk growth is slow and takes years. It happens, yet it’s not something you’ll notice.

Azaleas grow slow, and like to push the growth out to the ends of the branches. This is whats happening to your trees. As you know, the essence of bonsai is reduction pruning to create a style. Every time I do for reduction pruning the first round I don’t feel good as it really looks devastating, but do it one must to achieve bonsai styling. One has to get on with it to move the bonsai forward.

My thought is, make a styling plan, grab the cutters and cut paste and make a beginning.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Really nice flowers on that first tree! Your azaleas do look very healthy.

A couple thoughts.

It’s highly likely these azaleas were establishing their roots and filling their containers and have stalled. Check to see if these are root bound, if so slip pot in another, larger, container. I use Tokoname grow pots a lot, uppotting each time they fill the container. Deep, cheap, wide, tougher then terra cotta pots and come in multiple sizes. (The usually come with wire holes, but I bore them out with a diamond hole cutter a bit bigger for drainage too). the first year.

Trunk growth is slow and takes years. It happens, yet it’s not something you’ll notice.

Azaleas grow slow, and like to push the growth out to the ends of the branches. This is whats happening to your trees. As you know, the essence of bonsai is reduction pruning to create a style. Every time I do for reduction pruning the first round I don’t feel good as it really looks devastating, but do it one must to achieve bonsai styling. One has to get on with it to move the bonsai forward.

My thought is, make a styling plan, grab the cutters and cut paste and make a beginning.

Cheers
DSD sen

Thanks DSD! Was really hoping you would chime in!
I’m going to buck up and do it. I was thinking that pruning would slow down trunk development, but at this rate I may never live to see them as bonsai so I think you’re right. Have you ever removed a large branch and had large portions of the plant die as a result? This Roberta Walters demo has me a little hesitant to hard prune.

 

[Glaucus]

Nice patterning on the Chitose Nishiki. How did you overwinter them in zone 5? Just wondering.
So sad the Roberta Walters videos have such bad audio quality. Very useful videos.

Pruning always slows down growth. You prune to prevent reverse taper and establish a dominant main trunk line. It was discussed more in depth in the other thread.
If you keep letting them grow they will remain this type of witches broom. And yes the base of the trunk will get fatter. But probably with reverse taper eventually.
Fattening up an azalea is of course not impossible. But a long grow season really seems essential. It could be that in Japan and at Nuccios they can get 3x the growth that you get.

They look perfectly healthy and happy, so no issue there.

 

[kale]

Nice patterning on the Chitose Nishiki. How did you overwinter them in zone 5? Just wondering.
So sad the Roberta Walters videos have such bad audio quality. Very useful videos.

Pruning always slows down growth. You prune to prevent reverse taper and establish a dominant main trunk line. It was discussed more in depth in the other thread.
If you keep letting them grow they will remain this type of witches broom. And yes the base of the trunk will get fatter. But probably with reverse taper eventually.
Fattening up an azalea is of course not impossible. But a long grow season really seems essential. It could be that in Japan and at Nuccios they can get 3x the growth that you get.

They look perfectly healthy and happy, so no issue there.

Thanks @Glaucus! I put them in a window well with a clear plastic cover. Temp never goes below 30!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks DSD! Was really hoping you would chime in!
I’m going to buck up and do it. I was thinking that pruning would slow down trunk development, but at this rate I may never live to see them as bonsai so I think you’re right. Have you ever removed a large branch and had large portions of the plant die as a result? This Roberta Walters demo has me a little hesitant to hard prune.

Yep, thats a really good video showing Roberta Walters, a former Gondo student, going through a strong spring cut back to azalea to our club years ago. A good technique that many folks don’t want to do as the tree won’t flower that year. But needed to keep the tree healthy. Worth watching a couple times over a couple years.

The branch die back normally will happen to older trees due to interrupting the sap flow suddenly. This is because an older tree has few branches and established sap pathways. Regretfully I did this cutback to a landscape azalea a couple years ago with some devastating results.

Presently I’m keeping this tree around as a lesson not to cut a branch back that I intend to keep, without having some green growth on the end…and just to see how the recovery, if ever, will happen. Not much. There appears to be some tiny growth on a couple branches ….that were hacked back without regard to the sap flow.


It’s my experience young, smaller vigorous, tree’s branches can be cut back flush in moderation, with excellent growth to follow.

Some steps I follow, just in case you might need to compare with your ideas.

Figure out what primary and secondary branches you want to keep. Remember, you may have to grow some! Use this as your guide. The initial goal is to create a basic primary and initial secondary branching structure, while leaving as much growth as possible

Please not rush in. The first branch you reduce should be absolutely one that has to go…and the next. I’ve cut off branches that I had to grow back just by rushing in. Guaranteed…You will make mistakes, learn from each.

Be sure to crave all pruning junctions convex and smooth to the surface on branches or trunks. ( I use green top putty for larger then pencil eraser tip cuts, liquid for others.

As @Glaucus mentioned, prune out the wheelspoke junctions first. You want a bifurcation at each trunk/branch junction. At the trunk junction there should be only one sideways secondary branch each time, rotating around the tree for… depending on the style… cascade and semi cascade have some variations.

Do not be afraid to keep an extra branch that you may intend to get rid of in another year of two for the health of the tree, or can’t decide which would be best to reduce for your design in the long run. The hardest decisions I’ve had to make on young trees are at the first and second years growth (wheelspokes) from the ground.

Use your common sense. If you think a reduction is too much for the moment, wait.

I’m pretty sure that’s too much to take in for now, so I’ll stop here.

I go off of light duty soon, so it will be back to work outside!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Here is a quick update. Guess which one of the 3 is in 100% kanuma. Needless to say, the other two will be in kanuma next year! Although, could also be drainage. The two yellowish ones are in peat, lava, haydite, pumice.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Very interesting @kale !

Which cultivars are shown?

cheers
DSD sends