Safe to plant JBP above Main Water Supply Line Pipe?

[penumbra]

I have had a Dwarf Japanese White Pine in a wood box with about the volume of a half barrel for 31 years. It has never been re-potted but it has been top dressed a few times. There are pictures of it somewhere on this site under a discussion on growing boxes.
It is a very healthy plant.

 

[エドガー]

31 years?!? Holy moly!

That's good to know!

I do recall Peter from Heron's talking about some of his trees that have been in the same pot for many years (some of them, much smaller pots too).

 

[jimib]

I dint know how deep your pipe is...or what it’s made of. My guess is it’s not too deep looking at the landscape. I would just plant the tree where ever I felt like planting it. I assure you people normally don’t ask when they’re planting stuff. I inspect those water service lines on a daily basis. I don’t ever recall seeing one crushed by tree roots.Typically when we find a leak it’s just because it’s old galvanized pipe, or if it’s poly or copper it’s been laying on something and eventually wore a hole through it. Then again our lines here are around 40 inches deep.

 

[penumbra]

our lines here are around 40 inches deep

That is probably code in your area due to maximum freeze depth. I wonder what its like in So CA?

 

[jimib]

That is probably code in your area due to maximum freeze depth. I wonder what its like in So CA?

Frost line here is 32” I’m sure it’s much shallower there...I know in South Carolina the frost line was only 12” in places.

 

[エドガー]

I dint know how deep your pipe is...or what it’s made of. My guess is it’s not too deep looking at the landscape. I would just plant the tree where ever I felt like planting it. I assure you people normally don’t ask when they’re planting stuff. I inspect those water service lines on a daily basis. I don’t ever recall seeing one crushed by tree roots.Typically when we find a leak it’s just because it’s old galvanized pipe, or if it’s poly or copper it’s been laying on something and eventually wore a hole through it. Then again our lines here are around 40 inches deep.

I dug a hole in Jan 2019 to try to plant it and stopped, because I hit that line with the shovel. It was 18-21" deep, black in color, felt like super hard and thick-walled pipe (yeah, that sounded funny, lol). Idk if it was steel, copper, brass, etc. House was built around 1990.

Was worried about the roots causing damage to it, so I stuck them in wine barrels after that.

But, also, the first picture (to the right edge, red arrows) shows a thick, 30yo eugenia, also directly above the water line. If that eugenia hasn't caused any issues yet, I would think the JBP wouldn't either (eugenia is super vigorous and grow a ton... needs constant trimming).

 

[エドガー]

Don't worry about how large the root ball is when transplanting. Some roots can be pruned without causing any problems for the trees.

I've decided to just plant it (sometime soon, when I'm not procrastinating/being-lazy). Main reason - I'd rather do it sooner than later, as they'll just get heavier. Also, I really dread the idea of re-potting these huge half-wine-barrels in the future, and I'd rather just have them in the ground and never have to deal with re-potting them ever again.

Now, the questions are...

I want to reduce the rootball so it is a little easier and lighter to plant (for things like lifting it in&out of the hole to adjust for height, positioning, etc.).
Is it safe to reduce the rootball back to the original, smaller 15gal pot size when I bought them? (the current half-wine-barrel is about 28-30gal I believe).

I don't even know if the roots have filled the entire barrels yet (it's been in them for almost 2 years) or if it is pot-bound.
I am guessing it isn't pot-bound yet, as it's only been 2 years and the barrels are quite big. Irdk though.

Also, timing (I'm in zone 10b, with no freezing winters)...
Is now/fall, or winter, or spring best to do this rootball-reduction by 50% and plant in ground?

Also, it still needs its' annual momiage/old-needle-removal and reduction of new branch tips (bifurcation)...
Can I do this around the same time as the rootball-reduction and planting in ground?
Or, should I do the momiage/pruning a season before, or after, the rootball-reduction and planting?
Which to do first - momiage/pruning or rootball-reduction/planting?

 

[Shibui]

I'm probably zone 9 ish here. Some light frost but hot summers.
I have always root pruned pines in late winter/ early spring and have no problem reducing roots by more than half. I am assured that root pruning pines in late summer/ early fall is also good. Some say even better than spring but have no personal experience to say yes or no or how much root can be removed. Pines never actually go fully dormant here and probably where you are too so we can do many things the more northern growers think is impossible.
From the size of the tree compared to the barrel I'd say they are unlikely to be full of roots yet and it would be definitely safe to reduce roots as needed.
There's a lot of experience to say leave growing shoots on pines to encourage them to regenerate roots so I would leave the top intact while transplanting. You can still cut back to previous needles if you miss a year's pruning, especially on young trees like this.
Trees are generally more resilient than we give them credit for and can usually recover even when we do things that are sub optimal. Stop procrastinating and get on with the transplant. It does not get any easier as the plants get older.

 

[エドガー]

Stop procrastinating and get on with the transplant. It does not get any easier as the plants get older.

Thanks for the info and advice!

Yeah, I'll stop procrastinating and will get it done.

Actually, this fall, I've finally started planting all the plants/trees I've been acquiring for the past few years (started the landscape renovation to rocks/pebbles/gravel 2 years ago).
Had to grow those plants in nursery pots first though for the first 1-2 years.
I'll probably make a separate thread about it. I'm not much into bonsai (but I will make some of the extra plants into bonsai). I'm more into building a Japanese garden with Japanese niwaki.

I got 15 plants down so far (mostly in 5gal sizes...and a few 7-15gal and 1gal too). I still got about 13 to do in the backyard (plus the 2 wine-barrel JBPs).
A lot of work, so I do about 3-6 at a time (moving the pebbles and rocks out of the way def adds extra hassle).
A few front-yard holes were the worst, as there's still 3-4" thick roots in the ground from previous, huge, paperbark trees that used to be here. Sawzall def helped me out there.

 

[parhamr]

Just think of the poor sap who would have to deal with it in 20 years

 

[エドガー]

Just think of the poor sap who would have to deal with it in 20 years

That might be me? Lol. Now you’re worrying me.

What would you rather do? Leave it in the barrel and need to repot the huge and heavy thing multiple times in the future or every 5-10 years? Or, plant it in ground and no need to worry about repotting?

If the line ever needs servicing, you can dig around/under/through the roots, or re-route a new line, or like others mentioned, directional boring.

It will be pruned and kept small and short anyways.

 

[エドガー]

Hard part over, lol - moving them heavy af barrels, removing pines from barrel and reducing rootball (so it’s easier/actually-possible/manageable to plant).

Never wanna do this again, lol. F big pots. Never gonna mess with anything bigger than a 15gal pot ever again.
These half barrels actually felt heavier than the small 20-28” boulders I placed before.

At least I don’t need to worry about the barrels anymore. And I can sell them too.

 

[エドガー]

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[エドガー]

The 2nd pine...

Not sure if that white stuff is the JBP’s beneficial michorrizae, or root aphids. Anyone know?



2nd step - momiage and pruning (bifurcation tips) tomorrow and Sunday or Monday.

3rd step - planting in ground (perhaps next wknd).
Gonna be easier/doable now, now that the rootball is realistically manageable.
They’re still heavy though... I can hardly lift them 6”.

 

[エドガー]

One done, one more to go tomorrow.

I’m thinking the momiage and light pruning should help in less transpiration... the newly reduced rootballs might not be able to support all that previous foliage properly.

Another reason I did momiage and pruning now instead of wait until spring... because I don’t wanna be standing on the soil while pruning in spring if they’re already planted in the ground, as it might shift/move/damage the newly establishing roots.

Also, it is much easier to do in garage... instead of being outside for hours (like I usually do).

 

[エドガー]

2nd one all done pruning & momiage. Guess it takes about 6-7hrs per tree (I always forget, since I only do it once per year).

At least I don’t need to do this again until Nov2021-Feb2022.

Would have been easier if I didn’t need to move the big barrels and re-pot the day before, lol.
I’ll continue with the planting next weekend or maybe Wednesday.

Gonna be harder outdoors in front-yard once planted (like last time I did this).
Kinda makes me reconsider and think about keeping them in pots (but smaller than half wine barrels of course), since it’s much easier to do momiage in garage. But, the JBP just doesn’t look like it’s part of the landscape when in a pot. Meh... I guess I’ll plant them.

 

[エドガー]

Finally done.

I’ll continue with backyard plantings (smaller plants) maybe next wknd. Need a break lol.

(Photos are probably out of order due to batch ULing)

 

[エドガー]

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[エドガー]

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