Repotting and half bare rooting pines

[Adair M]

I don´t know who Boon is, not sure he is known much in Spain, maybe among some more international masters... Is he doing demos in international expos? I would like to see him in some videos just to get to know him better.

What I know and is a common approach for conifers and well known by most definitely in Spain is to remove the old soil in phases: sometimes to remove only half of the old soil, some people remove completely the old soil and take higher risk, some other do half and after some years the other half, and some others split it in 4 pieces and get rid of the soil fully after 4 repotting ... I think this is common knowledge among prole working with conifers as I said . And of course prices of the trees are higher if you want to sell a tree and you already took the risk of getting rid completely of the old soil and it thrives for couple of years.

Not sure to remove half of the old soil can be attributed to Boon's idea.

Like I said, Boon is the one who popularized it here in the USA. I believe it was his idea, but I’m not sure.

Boon does travel Internationally, he did one of the Noelander’s Trophy events several years ago. But he’s trying to limit his travel now and spend more time at his nursery.

More information about Boon can be found on his website including instructional videos:

Www.bonsaiboon.com

 

[Cosmos]

Boon came to Montreal years ago to give a demo and workshops, from what I was told, and his visit was most appreciated. That being said, still waiting for Smoke to come in and say people were using the APL mix in the 70s

If you can’t get akadama, no problem. A 50/50 mix of lava and pumice will work, too, you’ll just have to water more often. The key is the mix should be all inorganic, and sieved to the same size particle. Round particles are preferred to “sharp” particles as a mix of round particles holds

That mix would have an incredibly low CEC? Like, you’d need to fertilize like a madman?

DE has very high CEC, that’s one of its upside (aside from cost, availability, durability to frost, decent appearance, etc.). Akadama is, according to the common interpretation of the bonsai community here, illegal to import into Canada, so that settles it for us I guess.

Chabasai (a zeolite) and DE are the two replacement components for high CEC and high water-holding capacity that are used here.

 

[bwaynef]

DE has very high CEC, that’s one of its upside (aside from cost, availability, durability to frost, decent appearance, etc.).

The problem with all the availability of DE is that its particle size is pretty small. And its pretty flat, so there isn't a ton of air space.

 

[Estonio]

Boon came to Montreal years ago to give a demo and workshops, from what I was told, and his visit was most appreciated. That being said, still waiting for Smoke to come in and say people were using the APL mix in the 70s

Most people in Spain are using akadama, pumice and lava rock in different proportions, i do it myself for my prebonsai and this is the mix they sell in my club. No one ever heard about Boon. For some trees kiryu is also used. I meet some people who use "lutita" with very good results. Not sure if the English translation is lutite or shale. Just in case could be an option in Canada...


That mix would have an incredibly low CEC? Like, you’d need to fertilize like a madman?

DE has very high CEC, that’s one of its upside (aside from cost, availability, durability to frost, decent appearance, etc.). Akadama is, according to the common interpretation of the bonsai community here, illegal to import into Canada, so that settles it for us I guess.

Chabasai (a zeolite) and DE are the two replacement components for high CEC and high water-holding capacity that are used here.

Boon came to Montreal years ago to give a demo and workshops, from what I was told, and his visit was most appreciated. That being said, still waiting for Smoke to come in and say people were using the APL mix in the 70s



That mix would have an incredibly low CEC? Like, you’d need to fertilize like a madman?

DE has very high CEC, that’s one of its upside (aside from cost, availability, durability to frost, decent appearance, etc.). Akadama is, according to the common interpretation of the bonsai community here, illegal to import into Canada, so that settles it for us I guess.

Chabasai (a zeolite) and DE are the two replacement components for high CEC and high water-holding capacity that are used here.

Most people in Spain are using akadama, pumice and lava rock in different proportions, i do it myself for my prebonsais and this is the mix they sell in my club. No one ever heard about Boon there. For some trees kiryu is also used. I met some people who use "lutita" with very good results. Not sure if the English translation is lutite or shale. Just in case could be an option in Canada...

 

[sorce]

The problem with all the availability of DE is that its particle size is pretty small. And its pretty flat, so there isn't a ton of air space.

Airspace is overrated.

The best thing about Akadama is it eventually makes for less airspace.



I reckon that's why small DE has been my go-to recently.

Sorce

 

[substratum]

The HBR process was popularized by Boon. Boon Mix soil works very well for bonsai, but transitioning from traditional nursery soil to Boon Mix can lead to problems if not done correctly.
...
I have HBR’ed dozens of trees with 100% success.

@Adair M - Is the technique you describe here generally only for pines and conifers?

 

[coh]

Boon came to Montreal years ago to give a demo and workshops, from what I was told, and his visit was most appreciated. That being said, still waiting for Smoke to come in and say people were using the APL mix in the 70s

I expect that one of these days Smoke is going to tell us how he invented the wheel (and fire too, of course)

That mix would have an incredibly low CEC? Like, you’d need to fertilize like a madman?

DE has very high CEC, that’s one of its upside (aside from cost, availability, durability to frost, decent appearance, etc.). Akadama is, according to the common interpretation of the bonsai community here, illegal to import into Canada, so that settles it for us I guess.

Chabasai (a zeolite) and DE are the two replacement components for high CEC and high water-holding capacity that are used here.

That's interesting and something I hadn't really ever thought about. I've always been impressed by the trees from Canada in the National show, not only the styling but they look incredibly healthy. I wonder if some of the bonsai growers are working with older stocks of akadama (or perhaps illegally obtained) or are they mostly using the type of mix you described? If the latter, I'd like to know more about that.

 

[M. Frary]

Only after Boon invents HBR, now we are done innovating.

Not everyone does this.
In fact I'll send Boon a Jack pine so he can find out for himself.
Some trees do not adhere to "rules".
My trees poo poo at akadama.
It's a questionable substrate at best. (Walter's words I agree)

 

[M. Frary]

This is why in Japan mist deciduous trees are potted in straight akadama, and are repotted every yea

I don't know about that.
I've found that every decidious tree I own needs a repot every year.
Whether in D E. or field soil.

 

[River's Edge]

Boon came to Montreal years ago to give a demo and workshops, from what I was told, and his visit was most appreciated. That being said, still waiting for Smoke to come in and say people were using the APL mix in the 70s



That mix would have an incredibly low CEC? Like, you’d need to fertilize like a madman?

DE has very high CEC, that’s one of its upside (aside from cost, availability, durability to frost, decent appearance, etc.). Akadama is, according to the common interpretation of the bonsai community here, illegal to import into Canada, so that settles it for us I guess.

Chabasai (a zeolite) and DE are the two replacement components for high CEC and high water-holding capacity that are used here.

Akadama is not illegal to import into Canada, the importer must meet certain requirements and obtain certification that the product is of a certain standard. Some of the lower quality akadama does not meet the requirements. Shipments have been refused due to debris found in the packaging, plants roots etc. One of the requirements is heating to a certain temperature for a certain period of time.
What has happened over the years is that importers have been less inclined to risk the investment in case the product comes in sub standard.
The new regulations have raised the cost considerably and sales have declined. This is similar in some areas of the United States.

 

[0soyoung]

Airspace is overrated.

Hey,

... take a deep breath.

 

[River's Edge]

Not everyone does this.
In fact I'll send Boon a Jack pine so he can find out for himself.
Some trees do not adhere to "rules".
My trees poo poo at akadama.
It's a questionable substrate at best. (Walter's words I agree)

Collecting pines in sandy substrate is difficult, i do it all the time. The biggest difficulty is keeping the substrate from falling off the roots on collection. ( it is sand and gravel after all) Since i started not fussing about trying to keep it all there after collection and replaced it with pumice or APL my success rates have improved a lot. There are still those that believe you should wrap everything tight and keep it that way for a year and see if the tree makes it. At best a 50% survival rate, so they say. I take special care to wrap roots in damp moss on collection and maintain humidity while handling roots with care and not removing any more roots or foliage than absolutely needed.
I think everyone should do what actually works best for them, that way they will be
Collected Pines bare rooted ( almost all the sand and gravel falls off anyhow) a bit of duff left on the surface. placed in APL and 1 year later! Voila! Collected in the fall! The fact is that trees placed in better conditions and receiving better care improve!

 

[amatbrewer]

I will not voice any opinion on the benefits of DE vs Akadama because I am utterly unqualified to do so. I have never used Akadama and my Bonsai knowledge/experience is very limited. My experience with DE is ~3 years and a handful of pre-bonsai.
I personally use DE for two overriding reasons: 1) it is readily available in my area while Akadama is not. 2) It is within my budget while Akadama is very, very not.
If it were not for these two factors I would probably be using Akadama. Only because it is so popular in the Bonsai world, and with my limited knowledge/experience it makes sense to follow widely accepted practices until I have good reasons to deviate from them. [Being able to pay my mortgage and other bills seems to be a good reason. ]

That said, I would like to mention one aspect of DE that that I have personally observed and think is missing from this, and many other, soil discussions:
In my limited experience with the DE (I believe the DE available in my area is of the softer variety), I have observed DE breaking down over time, and roots growing into/through the particles which as I understand it are some of the desirable traits of Akadama (I have seen this explained in a Mirai video and I believe this has also been mentioned in some BN discussions).

Please note that I am NOT saying that this is a reason to use one over the other, only that it seems to be a detail missing from the discussion, and it seems like it could be an important detail.

 

[coh]

That said, I would like to mention one aspect of DE that that I have personally observed and think is missing from this, and many other, soil discussions:
In my limited experience with the DE (I believe the DE available in my area is of the softer variety), I have observed DE breaking down over time, and roots growing into/through the particles which as I understand it are some of the desirable traits of Akadama (I have seen this explained in a Mirai video and I believe this has also been mentioned in some BN discussions).

I don't doubt that roots will penetrate DE particles. I've seen roots grow through lava (I posted a picture of this some years ago). Personally haven't used DE enough to have an opinion on how it compares to akadama. I've been using akadama now for maybe 5-6 years, in a climate with deep freezing and many freeze-thaw cycles, and haven't encountered any problems with it "turning to mush". Often when I repot several years later I find plenty of intact akadama particles.

(edit to add - link to older thread with roots through lava)

Akadama is not illegal to import into Canada, the importer must meet certain requirements and obtain certification that the product is of a certain standard. Some of the lower quality akadama does not meet the requirements. Shipments have been refused due to debris found in the packaging, plants roots etc. One of the requirements is heating to a certain temperature for a certain period of time.
What has happened over the years is that importers have been less inclined to risk the investment in case the product comes in sub standard.
The new regulations have raised the cost considerably and sales have declined. This is similar in some areas of the United States.

That makes more sense. Still, I'd be interested in knowing what they are using in those spectacular trees that come down every two years from the Montreal area. Probably the "good" akadama I would guess.

 

[0soyoung]

In my limited experience with the DE (I believe the DE available in my area is of the softer variety), I have observed DE breaking down over time, and roots growing into/through the particles which as I understand it are some of the desirable traits of Akadama (I have seen this explained in a Mirai video and I believe this has also been mentioned in some BN discussions).

This is actually not a desirable trait.
IMHO, one wants hard particles that force the root tips to bend as they grow, as it causes them to branch (ramify). But even without the backing of scientific research why would straight-arrow radial roots, like spokes of a wagon or bicycle wheel, be a good thing?

 

[Adair M]

This is actually not a desirable trait.
IMHO, one wants hard particles that force the root tips to bend as they grow, as it causes them to branch (ramify). But even without the backing of scientific research why would straight-arrow radial roots, like spokes of a wagon or bicycle wheel, be a good thing?

0so, who said anything about arrow straight roots?

Radial nebari is desirable. Crossing roots are ugly.

About fertilizing: yes, APL no nutrients. That’s why I use the “poo balls” organic fertilizer, heavily, pretty much all the time. And supplement with fish emulsion.

 

[amatbrewer]

As an example of what I understand (not from personal experience), I am referring to the YouTube Video: Bonsai Miari - BSOP Series: Soil
At about 1:05:20
While doing a repotting demo he shows some fine roots growing through a piece of Akadama:
“…roots growing straight through the Akadama particles…”
“that is the exact situation that we were talking about where it grows through, it expands, it cracks, it ramifies, it grows through, it expands, it cracks, it ramifies…nearly two years out of the field…that is impressive”

Previously at about~00:10:00 – Akadama
He talks about how due to the tubular structure of Akadama (vs the plate structure of most clay) roots can grow into the particles, expand and fracture the particle, and in the process it starts to branch…he repeats how it branches and fractures over and over…”and all of a sudden we’ve got this fine massive network of water uptake, nutrient uptake, nutrient binding capacity, water holding capacity, scalable to the size of the root system as it actively breaks down that particle”

But as the particles break down does that not mean it loses oxygen spaces? Yes, but he goes on to say that with finer and finer roots, it is able to utilize smaller and smaller air pockets. “proportional decomposition”
What I have trouble with, and has been talked about extensively in this group, is that this smaller and smaller particle size means results in reduced flow of water and oxygen…which is kind of contrary.
The only explanation I have been able to derive, is that this may be a worthwhile trade-off given that we will be repotting when this gets to a point where it is detrimental to the tree.

 

[0soyoung]

0so, who said anything about arrow straight roots?

I did in just trying to get it into simple terms.
What would happen if roots could just drill their way straight through the substrate?

 

[River's Edge]

I don't doubt that roots will penetrate DE particles. I've seen roots grow through lava (I posted a picture of this some years ago). Personally haven't used DE enough to have an opinion on how it compares to akadama. I've been using akadama now for maybe 5-6 years, in a climate with deep freezing and many freeze-thaw cycles, and haven't encountered any problems with it "turning to mush". Often when I repot several years later I find plenty of intact akadama particles.

(edit to add - link to older thread with roots through lava)



That makes more sense. Still, I'd be interested in knowing what they are using in those spectacular trees that come down every two years from the Montreal area. Probably the "good" akadama I would guess.

I have yet to see a spectacular tree in any show that did not have a well draining primarily inorganic soil mix. At least over the past two decades. For that matter i have yet to see a professional that does not use Akadama for certain trees, stages, etc. However, this is based on shows primarily in the Pacific Northwest, Washington, Oregon, California and my experiences in Japan. Top trees i have seen in collections in Ontario and Quebec have also used Akadama. The percentages change and the additional components vary with region.

 

[0soyoung]

While doing a repotting demo he shows some fine roots growing through a piece of Akadama:
“…roots growing straight through the Akadama particles…”
“that is the exact situation that we were talking about where it grows through, it expands, it cracks, it ramifies, it grows through, it expands, it cracks, it ramifies…nearly two years out of the field…that is impressive”

I see that with Turface, particles of which are rock hard. Maybe it is a consequence of both being clays??