Removing a sacrifice on JBP in conjunction with root work?

[MrFancyPlants]

It is about time for the apical sacrifice to come off this JBP. I have a new sacrifice from the first node (eye poking branch on the left), that is about ready to take off to develop taper and more thickening. Sometime soon, I'd also like to take a pretty good look at the roots to see how they are developing. This JBP hasn't been repotted in over 5 years and is probably escaping from the flat with about a years worth of roots.

My question is how should I optimally time the two upcoming operations? I.e. balance the top and the bottom by repotting and removing the apical sacrifice simultaneously? In the fall? Or repot, but leave the sacrifice to help the roots recover for 1 year? Or remove the sacrifice this year and repot next year?

For reference, the apical sacrifice has ~40% of the plant's foliage mass.

 

[garywood]

MFP, timing on removing sacrifice is when it's done what it's supposed to do. Everyone puts that priority where they think it's important for their plan. To me, it's neither time to remove for taper or rootwork. I personally leave sacrifice after repotting until at least june to grow roots. The size of the candles indicates to me that if roots have escaped, it's not much. For me, I would look for a lower bud than the highest for a new leader. Taper will be more noticeable. Those are my thoughts but we all know about opinions ;-)

 

[MrFancyPlants]

MFP, timing on removing sacrifice is when it's done what it's supposed to do. Everyone puts that priority where they think it's important for their plan. To me, it's neither time to remove for taper or rootwork. I personally leave sacrifice after repotting until at least june to grow roots. The size of the candles indicates to me that if roots have escaped, it's not much. For me, I would look for a lower bud than the highest for a new leader. Taper will be more noticeable. Those are my thoughts but we all know about opinions ;-)

You're saying IF it were time to remove the sacrifice, you would do root-work now and remove the sacrifice in June? But, you think I should do rootwork now, leave both sacrifices on indefinitely and consider a lower leader? I'll consider it, and I do appreciate your opinion.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Whenever I bring this one (or other trees) to a meeting or a workshop, everyone always wants to take off the sacrifice branches, but I think there is a desire to witness the progress. I am getting better at refusing if I think the sacrifice still has work to do. In this case, I thought the top section was getting thick enough and enjoyed the subtle bend I put in the the top most section and was planning on adding taper and more thickness with the lower sacrifice rather than chopping for taper. Admittedly I'm not sure how the taper via sacrifice branches would compare to taper via chopping long term. I thought that by using a series of sacrifice branches from further down, I could generate taper and give this top some more time to heal in development.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

@garywood , I was looking through your blog and noted that you said the flats promoted good aeration. Do you keep the flats off the ground in order to realize this benefit? I used mostly turface, some compost and recycled bonsai soil when I originally hastily potted this pine and thinking if I deck it out with some of the good stuff(pumice, D.E., scoria) I may be able to accelerate development? And maybe keep the flat off the ground to promote aeration and to air prune the roots for better root development?

 

[Thomas J.]

I would be inclined to remove any thick sacrifice branches in the winter when the sap has stopped flowing. In June you'll probably get a lot of sap bleeding which could probably be detrimental to the tree.

 

[garywood]

MFP, they are on ground cloth (weed barrier) The important part in developing pines is vigor. Never do any work on a tree that's not vigorous! It only slows development.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

The candles on the sacrifice branches are pretty big, but I don't have much to compare to.. hopefully still extending as we are just finishing up with the nightime freezes around here. I guess I don't mind keeping the top sacrifice a year or two longer if it helps me get the roots in order faster. So what do you think rootwork now or mid-August?

 

[River's Edge]

The candles on the sacrifice branches are pretty big, but I don't have much to compare to.. hopefully still extending as we are just finishing up with the nightime freezes around here. I guess I don't mind keeping the top sacrifice a year or two longer if it helps me get the roots in order faster. So what do you think rootwork now or mid-August?

If it was in my care, i would let it grow at this point without disruption by removing anything or repotting. I would ensure that the bottom growth is not shaded out and the tree is in full sun. Rotate the tree regularily for even development on all sides. I might wire the top sacrifice branch up out of the way so it does not interfere with light and air to the bottom growth. Keep an eye on the lower growth to ensure bottom branches do not create problems such as bulges or inverse taper as they strengthen.
Caveat: i cannot see from your pictures if the nebari is in need of correction at this point. If it is than that could change the advice because i like to get the nebari in great shape while the tree is still young and developing.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

The roots haven't been touched in over 5 years, and the nebari is (hopefully) buried. It is well over-due to at least check on the root development. This was an air-layer that a friend of mine took, so the roots shouldn't be too bad, but know way of knowing at this point. I suppose I could do some soil removal at the surface without doing a full repot.

 

[River's Edge]

The roots haven't been touched in over 5 years, and the nebari is (hopefully) buried. It is well over-due to at least check on the root development. This was an air-layer that a friend of mine took, so the roots shouldn't be too bad, but know way of knowing at this point. I suppose I could do some soil removal at the surface without doing a full repot.

That would be the best first step to understand the situation more clearly. If it was air layered and placed in the anderson flat five years ago i doubt it has outgrown the available root space. The top shows no indication of explosive growth. But as they say " What is the rest of the story"? Was it placed very deep? Are the roots now angling up or going straight down? Best bet, uncover the surface and determine the situation.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Best bet, uncover the surface and determine the situation.

I do appreciate all the input from everyone. After I got home from work today I did a little excavation on the surface and snapped a few pics. It is pretty hard to see in the photos with the lack of contrast. Maybe next time i’ll paint some water on the roots to help them pop a little. Not terrible, but a little one sided. It was also hard for me to get a decent shot with the sacrifices getting in the way and being nailed to the raised bed, so bare with me.

I think the firsst pic (featuring my thumb) would be my favorite nebari, not really knowing what the tree looks like from that angle. There is a thicker, higher/crossing root around the top left of the last pic that I would think could be removed to restore a little balance.

I am thinking I could put off major root work, and sacrifice removal, for a few years as everyone seems to suggest, but might it increase vigor down the road to repot into the same flat but with a much coarser mix? Then I could make sure there weren't any big downward pointing roots while I was at it?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

It depends how important you think the roots are for the pine in the future. When you repot you will cut back thick or unwanted roots and give smaller roots the chance to catch up. Yes you will lose vigor this year but ... And I would leave the sacrifice untill you are happy with the thickness of the base. When you start a new one it won't grow much untill it reaches the size of the place you've cut. So unless lower branches start to lose vigor or the size is achieved I would leave it growing...

 

[River's Edge]

I do appreciate all the input from everyone. After I got home from work today I did a little excavation on the surface and snapped a few pics. It is pretty hard to see in the photos with the lack of contrast. Maybe next time i’ll paint some water on the roots to help them pop a little. Not terrible, but a little one sided. It was also hard for me to get a decent shot with the sacrifices getting in the way and being nailed to the raised bed, so bare with me.

I think the firsst pic (featuring my thumb) would be my favorite nebari, not really knowing what the tree looks like from that angle. There is a thicker, higher/crossing root around the top left of the last pic that I would think could be removed to restore a little balance.

I am thinking I could put off major root work, and sacrifice removal, for a few years as everyone seems to suggest, but might it increase vigor down the road to repot into the same flat but with a much coarser mix? Then I could make sure there weren't any big downward pointing roots while I was at it?

Thanks for adding the pictures it gives a clearer picture.
Based on your picture i would repot using the 1/2 HBR method on the side that has the fewest larger nebari. See if you can reposition some larger roots out instead of down and regenerate that side, leaving the better side for a later date. This gives you the opportunity to improve the roots on one side, determine if further action is needed down the road. Ie: root grafting. And do so without interrupting the overal vigour and growth by too much. Do not remove sacrifice branches or any extra foliage at the same time as the 1/2 HBR unless necessary to prevent long term damage to design. At the same time if you find an area that is bare of roots, you can drill a small hole, stuff it with sphagnum soaked in rooting hormone and cover with soil. Sometimes this promotes roots at that location. I use a 1/8 inch drill bit on slow speed. Approx 1/4 to 3/8 inch deep just where the roots may be desired. It also helps to use sphagnum to cover this section of soil to keep it from drying out.
When doing the 1/2 HBR use a chopstick gently and comb roots out toward the edge from the trunk. Keep as many small roots as possible and any larger ones that can be straightened out or moved into vacant areas. Seal the ends of larger ones you cut and use wire staples or raffia to hold the roots in the the position you prefer. Raffia is better because it rots away and you do not have to remember to remove it.
Hope my ramblings make sense. 1/2 HBR is doing one half of the root ball at a time and bare rooting. Chopsticks are better than root hooks, use them gently and slowly work your way through. I often rinse gently away then use the chopstick, repeat, repeat, repeat.
Then the chopstick carefully to assist with adding the soil back between the roots once positioned. Ensure no air spaces and water thoroughly until the water runs clear, wait ten minutes and water thoroughly again. This washs away the fine dust and debris and ensures that the whole root ball is properly watered.
The advantage will be that in two years you can repeat on the opposite side and the tree will not have to suffer a major setback with a full repotting because it was left too long.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Half bare root sounds like a plan. I’ll see if I can put it somewhere sunnier too, but fortunately it looks like those candles are still extending in a display of vigor. Solo for scale.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

i didn’t get around to the HBR, but still planning on doing it this Summer or Fall. Any tips on timing are appreciated even if it is wait until next spring. But, check out the extension on these sacrifice branches, with a second round of budding too. Not the longest needles, but that is ok. Maybe due to more sun at the new house?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I attempted the recommended HBR today. I’m not sure I executed ideally, as I felt a little rushed trying to get it done during the little one’s nap time. I ended up using mostly calcined DME and Pumice with some charcoal and spaghnum mixed in. I topped off with some agriform fertilizer tablets. I’m expecting some vigorous growth come next spring. I think I’ll take off the top sacrifice this winter.

 

[River's Edge]

I attempted the recommended HBR today. I’m not sure I executed ideally, as I felt a little rushed trying to get it done during the little one’s nap time. I ended up using mostly calcined DME and Pumice with some charcoal and spaghnum mixed in. I topped off with some agriform fertilizer tablets. I’m expecting some vigorous growth come next spring. I think I’ll take off the top sacrifice this winter.

The root ball is looking good. If i could make a suggestion regarding the top sacrifice removal timing. I would consider doing it after the buds start extending in the spring and the new needles are standing away from the candle. The reasoning is as follows. This gives you the advantage of additional foliage to fuel the initial growth in the spring and gets the engine up to speed while continuing the root recovery from repotting. When you remove the top at this time the tree is already producing lots of energy to help heal the cut and carry on for the growing season. With conifers the extra foliage at the beginning of the season means more chlorophyll and more photosynthesis producing more energy! For my climate this generally works out to about the beginning of June.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Going on two years later, and I realize now I’ve been letting this one do it’s own thing for the most part. The apical sacrifice came off over the winter. It might have been clipped by the lawn mower at some point, but just as well as my lower sacrifices are really gathering some steam now, which should be good for taper.
I never went back to bare root the other half. Think I should this year? Or just let it go? I’m leaning towards thinking there is no rush as the health is fine.
I’m also debating letting the roots escape for a couple years.. I think I had an app for measuring sun exposure I’ll try and dig up. The middle of the front yard would be ideal for the tree, but around the side of the house could be a good compromise. The flat doesn’t work well on my bench, which has the best exposure in the back yard.

 

[River's Edge]

Going on two years later, and I realize now I’ve been letting this one do it’s own thing for the most part. The apical sacrifice came off over the winter. It might have been clipped by the lawn mower at some point, but just as well as my lower sacrifices are really gathering some steam now, which should be good for taper.
I never went back to bare root the other half. Think I should this year? Or just let it go? I’m leaning towards thinking there is no rush as the health is fine.
I’m also debating letting the roots escape for a couple years.. I think I had an app for measuring sun exposure I’ll try and dig up. The middle of the front yard would be ideal for the tree, but around the side of the house could be a good compromise. The flat doesn’t work well on my bench, which has the best exposure in the back yard.View attachment 297268View attachment 297269

The tree looks healthy and nicely barked up. You are losing opportunity to manage and develop the lower branching. I would suggest decandling the lower branches and letting the one higher branch act as an apical leader for now. ( you might wire that one more vertical and lower the other branches with wire) . Protect any lower shoots that are forming for the time being. From the picture it is unclear how many there may be.
Here is a rough picture of the format I am suggesting to work towards. Leave the tree in the Andersen flat and consider the other 1/2 HBR this fall. That will allow time for root recovery and not interfere with next springs growing season.