Recently "styled" shimpaku - any thoughts/suggestions?

[Poink88]

Brian, I think the character is due to the movement brought by wiring NOT because you let the wire dig in. Signs of trauma could be good but sometimes, it is better if you can control where it is inflicted. With wire damage, it usually is obvious. I know you can work it in some instances i.e. stripping bark and leaving live vein but again....it is better to have full control/choice where to direct it if possible. JMHO.

 

[Dav4]

I've never deliberately let the wire dig in on my junipers to add character, but more so to fix the branch in place. I will say, though, that in retrospect, the branches with the exxagerated movement and wire scars definitely were gnarlier then the ones without, and usually fit the design of an old weather beaten juniper just fine...and after a few years, you couldn't really ID wire scarring, per se...I can say truthfully that no one has ever looked at any of my better junipers and said, "Boy, it's a real shame about those wire scars". My two cents.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, I think the character is due to the movement brought by wiring NOT because you let the wire dig in. Signs of trauma could be good but sometimes, it is better if you can control where it is inflicted. With wire damage, it usually is obvious. I know you can work it in some instances i.e. stripping bark and leaving live vein but again....it is better to have full control/choice where to direct it if possible. JMHO.

The truth is, the initial wiring dug in to that branch deep enough (+/-75%) that the movement created was further accentuated and solidified by the scarring. What is shown is the result of initial wiring in March 2010 + 3 years of growth; i.e. the tree's response to the trauma.

Since you welcome the "brutal truth", here is some more: That little branch has actually been wired for longer than you've been doing bonsai, and yet for some reason, you correct my experience with Just Your Humble Opinions. It's absurd.

 

[october]

I have found that scarring is almost a necessity with conifers. They just do not hold their shape unless they are practically scarred. I have been leaving wire on some for a year or however long they can take it without doing severe damage. Even when it bites in and you take the wire off, you will probably have to wire again.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

The truth is, the initial wiring dug in to that branch deep enough (+/-75%) that the movement created was further accentuated and solidified by the scarring. What is shown is the result of initial wiring in March 2010 + 3 years of growth; i.e. the tree's response to the trauma.

Since you welcome the "brutal truth", here is some more: That little branch has actually been wired for longer than you've been doing bonsai, and yet for some reason, you correct my experience with Just Your Humble Opinions. It's absurd.

If you say so. Please read my post again...I did not correct you...just stated my opinion. Do as you wish.

I've seen super nice trees that survived 100's or 1000s of years of "trauma". Should I subject my pre-bonsai to same since they will be nicer in 100 years or so? Maybe, if I can or want to wait that long.

Can wire digging in create good character? Sure it can, but I maintain that it is not the ideal way. Hitting the trees with a bat can produce good results too (if you are lucky)...but I'd rather have it done in a controlled way.

 

[coh]

My initial reaction was that I wouldn't like those kinds of wire scars (in the photo posted by Brian). But...I don't have the experience to really know how that branch will evolve and look in 5 or 10 years. Maybe it will be really great. Maybe it's already great, it's hard to tell from a photo, really best to see the tree in person before rushing to judgement.

I sat in on a workshop with Kathy Shaner recently. She was demonstrating techniques to develop Chinese quince from modest-sized (1" trunk) stock. One of the things she recommended (and demonstrated) was to wire the branches loosely, then twist them quite severely as they were being bent. Some of the branches were completely twisted around several times as she progressed out from the trunk. During this twisting the wire tightened so it would hold. Quite a few of the branches snapped (part way, not completely) during the process. Her opinion is that the severe twisting and occasional breaks adds character, gnarliness, muscle to the branches as they heal and grow. It's something I never would have thought of doing and my first reaction was...why? But she's been doing bonsai a lot longer than I (3 years) so there must be something to it, it must work.

Chris

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

My initial reaction was that I wouldn't like those kinds of wire scars (in the photo posted by Brian). But...I don't have the experience to really know how that branch will evolve and look in 5 or 10 years. Maybe it will be really great. Maybe it's already great, it's hard to tell from a photo, really best to see the tree in person before rushing to judgement.

I sat in on a workshop with Kathy Shaner recently. She was demonstrating techniques to develop Chinese quince from modest-sized (1" trunk) stock. One of the things she recommended (and demonstrated) was to wire the branches loosely, then twist them quite severely as they were being bent. Some of the branches were completely twisted around several times as she progressed out from the trunk. During this twisting the wire tightened so it would hold. Quite a few of the branches snapped (part way, not completely) during the process. Her opinion is that the severe twisting and occasional breaks adds character, gnarliness, muscle to the branches as they heal and grow. It's something I never would have thought of doing and my first reaction was...why? But she's been doing bonsai a lot longer than I (3 years) so there must be something to it, it must work.

Chris

Funny, because this is the juniper I've taken to several Kathy workshops, and that is exactly what we did with that branch shown, in '10 and '11. It's pretty dynamic in life, and a juniper full of branches like that makes for an interesting bonsai after a while.

 

[TheSteve]

Just did this to the apex (in training) of a Pacific silver fir bunjin to get the branches to radiate in the directions I wanted instead of what it wanted. Twisting seems to speed up setting in experience and the full twisting of the cambium causes much faster thickening and wire biting as well.

I'm thinking about trying this with some JBP seedlings. The twisting will hopefully show up in the bark in later life (but that's just a hope right now, I have nothing to back that up)

 

[Paulpash]

Adding character and dynamism to a branch often means you have to exaggerate movement in all planes when you wire - as it thickens a branch will 'plateau out' visually if little movement exists. Kathy obviously goes for the gnarly approach and knows that these branches will be characterful in time... even if in the short term they appear to be a little extreme. October made a good point about the memory of conifer wood ... so why not save yourself some time and effort and leave it on a while longer than you should?

 

[coh]

So...I still have this tree. Every year I look at it and try to figure out if there is something that can be done with it. I've always felt that the trunk line is interesting enough that I should be able to make something with it, but have never found the right path. So does anyone feel like actually looking at and thinking about a tree instead of all the other bs that's been going on the forum lately?

The tree has changed quite a bit in the past 6 years as some sections have died off. I was looking at it earlier this summer and thought I saw potential from this view, based on the interesting lower right branch. So I went ahead and did some thinning and wiring and came up with this. This should not be considered a final image as there is still a lot to do - foliage masses are too heavy, there is excessive incoherent deadwood, etc. I like the trunk flow but that long straight section is too strong. Right now there is no way to bring any foliage in front of it unless I move that lower left branch up, which could be done.



But if you turn it around, there is foliage to hide part of that section of trunk. I think this side might work better. However, the wiring and "styling" I did was based on the other side, so things would have to be reconfigured to use this.



So what do people think? Yeah or nay? Trash or treasure?

My current plan is to possibly do a little more thinning and reorganization this month, but I don't want to remove too much more foliage because it's due for a repot in the spring.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would go with the back as the front, so the foliage hides the straight run.

 

[coltranem]

I like the back better too it feels more engaging and less busy. However I wonder if it could be reduced more to create at stronger image. There is a big gap between the lower foliage and the upper foliage.

Just a couple of ideas.
1. Try to just work with the foliage on the lower branches.
2. Less drastic I think the lower foliage pad is wide reduce the left side. In this case the upper foliage would need to be brought in tighter too.

In both case I'd reduce the length of the lower jin.

 

[sorce]

I was just here to confirm all your trees have potential, it's just, this one has potential to fuel a fire.

This tree should have been burned when matches where a thing.

This tree dies after the trunk wiggle, and that ain't enough.

Some trees get better after 6 years.
This one hasn't.

You'd have to layer it for it to be up to par with your collection. Then, it wouldn't be up to par with your collection.

Map gas?



Sorce

 

[thomas22]

You have the bottom half of the tree moving one way and the top half moving the other. I would try to bend or twist the top around to be more over the lower portion. You may have to remove some deadwood and split the branch to bend but what do you have to lose at this point. I would be thinking literati also. I would not give up on this tree.

 

[Paulpash]

I'd grow out the 2nd branch in the first pic to prep it as the leader and Jin / reduce all above. The straight section is the poorest feature of the tree so remove it, introduce more deadwood & link it from the base with Shari.

I think that 2nd branch is easily supple enough to move it up as a leader or guy wire it up. Play about with the planting angle to compliment the new leader and I think it would make a better, more powerful tree:

Increased taper & movement
Elimination of the straight run
More deadwood / Shari.
Thinner branches that you can wire effectively.

 

[misfit11]

I'd grow out the 2nd branch in the first pic to prep it as the leader and Jin / reduce all above. The straight section is the poorest feature of the tree so remove it, introduce more deadwood & link it from the base with Shari.

I think that 2nd branch is easily supple enough to move it up as a leader or guy wire it up. Play about with the planting angle to compliment the new leader and I think it would make a better, more powerful tree:

Increased taper & movement
Elimination of the straight run
More deadwood / Shari.
Thinner branches that you can wire effectively.

I agree with Paul here. Initially, I thought that this tree could work well as a bunjin, but he's right, that straight section above the second branch doesn't support that style well.
Also, that lower jin needs to be MUCH shorter. Long thin deadwood tends to get broken in nature and is jarring in the eye of a viewer.
This tree absolutely does have potential, though, contrary to what Sorce has on the subject .

 

[coh]

Thanks for your thoughts, @thomas22 , @Paulpash and @misfit11 .

My goal is going to be to make use of the entire tree. With that in mind, I'm going to look into bending that long straight section and perhaps twisting it as well. There is deadwood embedded in that trunk section and perhaps if it is removed/separated I could introduce enough movement to make it work. Going to see if I can take it to a fall workshop with Bill sometime in September.

If that fails or the branches/trunk die back, I can always try to make a shorter tree out of what is left, along the lines of what Paul suggested.

Deadwood will be modified/shortened/cleaned up once a final front/style has been worked out.

Thanks again

Chris

You have the bottom half of the tree moving one way and the top half moving the other. I would try to bend or twist the top around to be more over the lower portion. You may have to remove some deadwood and split the branch to bend but what do you have to lose at this point. I would be thinking literati also. I would not give up on this tree.

I'd grow out the 2nd branch in the first pic to prep it as the leader and Jin / reduce all above. The straight section is the poorest feature of the tree so remove it, introduce more deadwood & link it from the base with Shari.

I think that 2nd branch is easily supple enough to move it up as a leader or guy wire it up. Play about with the planting angle to compliment the new leader and I think it would make a better, more powerful tree:

Increased taper & movement
Elimination of the straight run
More deadwood / Shari.
Thinner branches that you can wire effectively.

I agree with Paul here. Initially, I thought that this tree could work well as a bunjin, but he's right, that straight section above the second branch doesn't support that style well.
Also, that lower jin needs to be MUCH shorter. Long thin deadwood tends to get broken in nature and is jarring in the eye of a viewer.
This tree absolutely does have potential, though, contrary to what Sorce has on the subject .