Raynn’s Juniper Projects - Procumbens Nana & Pfitzeriana Aurea

[ForeverRaynning]

No the second one is not a communis.
See there's almost no wood in between the two needles? And how they are feather shaped, but less flat? Almost saw-like.
Also note how the bark is shiny and reddish, as opposed to woody and darker brown?

This year or the next, it will probably develop some adult foliage.

The bad news is that it's young. The good news is that it's bushy and vigorous! I managed to grow a plant this size to about a two centimeter thick trunk in three years in the ground.

In my guy_wires collection thread somewhere on this forum, I did a styling of a pfitzer this winter. @Hartinez is also pretty good with them! Do check out his threads!

Oh thank goodness! Yep I see it, that’s why I wasn’t sure if it was a communis, it was just the foliage being so different to what I have seen with Pfitzeriana’s that was worrying me, am I correct then that this is just immature foliage and I do infact have a Pfitzeriana? Or is it too early to tell? Either way, its not a communis.

That’s a relief, glad I was overthinking it. Heard these grow quite well (RHS uses the word vigorous!) in good conditions as its not a compact/dwarf variety so don’t grow slow like procumbens do? Not sure if I can ground grow though, don’t know where I’d put it. What sort of site is best for ground growing (RHS seems to say it’ll grow almost anywhere)? May be able to find somewhere I’m allowed to leave it, if not I guess its a case of biggest pot I can (probably the old rose pots, though we have some bigger ceramic ones come to think of it) and possibly frequently up-pot to keep it growing. Did you fertilise yours?

Will have a look for the ones you mentioned!

 

[Empty Mountain]

I would be careful with putting your tree into too large a pot especially if you're using topsoil. A small tree in a large pot will stay too wet especially if it's not in the most free draining substrate. It would be more ideal for growth if your tree can dry out a bit in between watering.

 

[Hartinez]

Once established Pfitzer will tighten up ok, but they tend to revert to juvenile foliage easily. Your biggest issue in the near future with these is the scale of the foliage and internodes (space between bifurcations) on Pfitzer. You’re going to want to grow these out for many years before styling. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

I would be careful with putting your tree into too large a pot especially if you're using topsoil. A small tree in a large pot will stay too wet especially if it's not in the most free draining substrate. It would be more ideal for growth if your tree can dry out a bit in between watering.

Yeah, now looking at a mix of perlite and coco coir if/when I re-pot them. May be able to ground grow this one yet, hoping the procumbens will be at a size and age I can start working with this year as I’ve nothing old enough to work on currently.

Once established Pfitzer will tighten up ok, but they tend to revert to juvenile foliage easily. Your biggest issue in the near future with these is the scale of the foliage and internodes (space between bifurcations) on Pfitzer. You’re going to want to grow these out for many years before styling. Just my 2 cents.

This is good to know, thank you. I assume keeping the scale tight is a matter of good care, making sure they get enough sun and nutrients? If it resorts to juvinile easily I guess pruning for tighter growth can be risky? I was reading that these can go a bit leggy, glad this one arrived nice and bushy, should be a good start. Hopefully can ground grow it somewhere to let it mature and thicken up for however long it needs, not sure what size I’d want it to be eventually, how thick I’d want it, but there’s plenty of time to figure that out.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Once established Pfitzer will tighten up ok, but they tend to revert to juvenile foliage easily. Your biggest issue in the near future with these is the scale of the foliage and internodes (space between bifurcations) on Pfitzer. You’re going to want to grow these out for many years before styling. Just my 2 cents.

Ah! Also just realised you are the one who has the Pfitzer I saw on here that made me fall in love with the foliage! I was looking at your house money thread and you linked a blue pfitzer thread of yours, saw the foliage on that when you first got it (don’t think I looked through the rest of the thread) and it had this sort of soft look/feel that I really liked, made me look forward to getting mine. Looking forward to when mine gets that mature foliage.

 

[Japonicus]

Pfitzer gives my wrists and arms quite the rash.
Yours looks to be labeled correctly. Don't think the 1st is labeled as correctly though.
Should try best to get to the NBS this weekend. Do use free draining soil. Top soil is what we try to get away from for best care. Hope you find a local bonsai club.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Likely the fastest way to grow out this juniper is repot into a slightly larger net pot, perhaps 2 cm more on each side.

Once it’s established, say fall this year, take the entire shooting match, pot and tree and repot into a bigger net pot with the same media. Coco coirand perlite would be great. This fall would also be a great time to start to wire up the branches.

Then periodically pull the small pot out of the larger net pot. Likely spring next year, would be the first time. Trim off the roots sticking out side the inner pot, work the superstructure as needed and repot into the larger pot again.

One can repeat this over and over for a couple years, the upsize both pots.

Just a couple thoughts.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Pfitzer gives my wrists and arms quite the rash.

Thankfully mine are ok today but I didn’t do a lot of touching it, maybe I got lucky.

Should try best to get to the NBS this weekend.

Sadly not an option, no transport, can’t go solo either, combination of autism and mental health make going anywhere very challenging, even with transport.

Hope you find a local bonsai club.

Am aware of one, but again, above applies.

Do use free draining soil. Top soil is what we try to get away from for best care.

Perlite+coir seems to be the way to go then. Need to take the plunge and just buy them, just unsure what size bag of perlite to start with.

Likely the fastest way to grow out this juniper is repot into a slightly larger net pot, perhaps 2 cm more on each side.

Interesting mention of net pots, is this for the sake of root development? I know under Bonsaify’s video on growing pines faster someone mentioned pond baskets, and the guy running the channel said he found pond baskets dry out too fast? Though he was using grow bags packed into flats. Will look into net pots.

Once it’s established, say fall this year, take the entire shooting match, pot and tree and repot into a bigger net pot with the same media. Coco coirand perlite would be great. This fall would also be a great time to start to wire up the branches.

Then periodically pull the small pot out of the larger net pot. Likely spring next year, would be the first time. Trim off the roots sticking out side the inner pot, work the superstructure as needed and repot into the larger pot again.

One can repeat this over and over for a couple years, the upsize both pots.

So this seems like a gentler way of doing root work without having to remove the full plant from its pot, thats very interesting! Would this be faster than ground-growing it? Or is this method suggested moreso for the ability to control the roots whilst it’s thickening itself up? I suppose with ground growing you then have to do rootwork once its grown the size you want and you’ve no idea what the roots look like till you dig it up.

In Bonsaify’s video, someone commented about pond baskets for root airation and the guy who runs the channel/made that video said that airpruning pots such as pond baskets don’t do as much for junipers as he found they dried out too quickly? But I suppose when you have only a smal handful of plants its easier to keep up with more frequent watering. And I suppose having the two pots means you really aren’t air pruning at all. Hmm. It’s certainly something to think about! Is this a method you’ve used yourself with good results?

In other news, the procumbens will here anytime… infact a van has just pulled in the drive so uh… maybe make that NOW!

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Now thats more like it!
But uh… what do I do now?

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Hard to get a good look at it with the foliage in the way, think some of it is dying towards the inside as light no doubt can’t yet through the top and its stuck below the top of the pot. Feels like I need to cut the pot lower so its more level with the soil.

Don’t think the trunks that thick but haven’t had a decent look, was hoping it’d be a bit bigger really, but I think I see at least one root coming out the bottom so it must have a decent enough root system. Just hope I can do something with it instead of having to wait a few years like I will with everything else. I assume there may be more trunk under the soil.

 

[ShadyStump]

combination of autism and mental health make going anywhere very challenging, even with transport.

My 15 year old daughter is autistic, and I'll tell you the same thing I tell her: don't sell yourself short.
You're not broken, just weird; and weird is only a problem for the sorts of people you shouldn't be worrying about anyway.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Dug around a bit, found the trunk. Seems to have some high roots, assume main rootball is a bit lower down?

Can see the dead inner foliage better in this one, amd I correct to assume this needs cleaning out at some point?


Grabbed my dads calipers, seems to be measuring 10-11mm so ~0.4 inch. Not sure if thats large enough to work with? Is there a trunk width to height and/or canopy size ratio for junipers like this? Not even sure if the trunk is any good, no idea what to look for, but worried its lacking potential but may just be doubting myself now I’m faced with a plant I may be able to actually do something with.

Beginning to feel my hands prickle now

 

[ForeverRaynning]

My 15 year old daughter is autistic, and I'll tell you the same thing I tell her: don't sell yourself short.
You're not broken, just weird; and weird is only a problem for the sorts of people you shouldn't be worrying about anyway.

Thanks Shady! I’ve been severely socially isolated for the best part of almost a decade (mostly thanks to the mental health part) so getting out and doing things, especially that involve other people, is tough.

I do LARP and even though I enjoy it and have a specific little group I’m in that are all really lovely and that I consider friends, I still get real anxious about going 4-6 weeks before the actual event and almost without fail get overwhelmed, have a breakdown and want to go home once I’ve been there for a day, thankfully the sites are far from home so theres no easy escape and I get through it and go back to enjoying it. But I got lucky that someone from the group took me under their wing and supported me in getting stuck in in the first place, I’d follow them around for the most part. Still do with the rest of the group.

So for now it’s baby steps, maybe someday down the line I’ll be able to join a society or be able to get myself on public transport to travel to places. But for now, I have the forum.

 

[ShadyStump]

Thanks Shady! I’ve been severely socially isolated for the best part of almost a decade (mostly thanks to the mental health part) so getting out and doing things, especially that involve other people, is tough.

I do LARP and even though I enjoy it and have a specific little group I’m in that are all really lovely and that I consider friends, I still get real anxious about going 4-6 weeks before the actual event and almost without fail get overwhelmed, have a breakdown and want to go home once I’ve been there for a day, thankfully the sites are far from home so theres no easy escape and I get through it and go back to enjoying it. But I got lucky that someone from the group took me under their wing and supported me in getting stuck in in the first place, I’d follow them around for the most part. Still do with the rest of the group.

So for now it’s baby steps, maybe someday down the line I’ll be able to join a society or be able to get myself on public transport to travel to places. But for now, I have the forum.

I understand completely. Just offering my own strange brand of encouragement.
Just remember that everything is an adventure, just like it is for the characters you play.

Is there a trunk width to height and/or canopy size ratio for junipers like this

It depends (you'll hear that allot in bonsai) At this point, it depends on what style you're going for.

I suggest getting it all set to grow out, as previously discussed, and a basic cleanup pruning. That's clearing out all that dead stuff, some minor decision making where you see three or more branches coming from the same spot, or unhealthy branches, finding out exactly what sort of trunk you're working with.
Tips on pruning:
We find ourselves wanting to keep the thickest or longest branches, but that's not always the way to go. If you have a branch that's as thick as the trunk you decide if you want it to be part of the trunk, and get rid of all the rest; or if you're ok with the trunk, and get rid of that branch. On junipers, long branches with little foliage aren't likely to grow new foliage on old wood. Unless a half naked limb is part of the design (like in a literati style) you should probably get rid of it.
If you want to help the trunk grow thicker, that's when you might keep that long, half naked branch. If it's in the right place. Again, it depends. We often call this a sacrifice branch; you let it grow for the sake of the tree's health and design, but you're going to get rid of it eventually.
For conifers like your junipers, they say, "one insult per year." That means if you do allot of pruning and styling, that's it until the next growing season. If you repot, that's it, nothing else. If you decide to chop off a good portion of the trunk, that's it. You can do ONE of these things, but then let the tree recover until the next season.
Also for conifers, late spring and sometimes early summer is a good time to prune, but a bad time to wire. Fall is a better time for wiring.

 

[Japonicus]

But uh… what do I do now?

Foliage will need to adjust to full Sun. In other words, don’t throw it out into full Sun yet.
Take a week exposing it more each day but kept outdoors at all times.
Focus on gaining health this year and learn the care for it and observe it.
It is best to focus on potting up 1st, keeping foliage to aid recovery.
Aim to do root work next Spring. I think it needs to gain vigor 1st.
Learn how to water it allowing to become almost dry but not.
If the soil were compacted, cutting down the pot to soil level will work
against you as the water will run off and submersing would become the way to water then.
It does not appear to be compacted so we don’t know last potting. More safe to wait till next
year to work the roots. This will give you the year to acquire the bonsai soil, wire, drainage screen
and pot.
You can comb through the foliage with your fingers and remove some offending branches
that are trespassing (bar branches and branches located in inside of curves) with bonsai sheers
scissors, or similar. Leave the rest of the interior foliage. Leave exterior foliage as well, to aid
in recovery next year after potting up. Combing through, you will get a better understanding of
what the juniper has to offer, and what you can do with it.

Perlite is overly lightweight as is coir. The slightest wind storm can wreak havoc with lightweight pots and
potting medium. Pumice, lava rock, pine bark and turface like material or akadama is what I use
and is widely available blended already as bonsai soil. You have the rest of the year to research soils
that are better suited for bonsai. Why not do it right? Most of my bonsai are juniper started from nursery cans.
Here’s one example going from can to pot in post #11.

Last juniper purchases this year I "promise" (fingers crossed)

Sarcastically, my wife said I needed another juniper, so I got 3 :p All 3 are in 3g cans. Left to right Sargent, Robusta (tall like a Hollywood juniper) and Gold Lace. There's a nursery not far from here in the Green Bottom Lesage area that sells wholesale from Columbus, Cincinnati -...

www.bonsainut.com

I did a cut back in July which caused good response then the following May I worked the roots with a
bushy head of foliage to help regenerate roots.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Thanks for the advice Shady! Wasn’t sure which species the one insult per year rule applied to, good to know conifers fall under it. Since we’re in late spring, I should at least be able to clean it up a bit. Will removing dead foliage count as pruning? Will have to take it out the pot to see what I’m doing so will have to be careful not to disturb it too much.

Foliage will need to adjust to full Sun. In other words, don’t throw it out into full Sun yet.

It came from a big outdoor nursery and arrived via overnight courier, so I suspect it’s acclimated to full sun? Unless it can deacclimatise that quickly. Regardless, its cloudy all week with some sunnier intervals but no clear sky all day sun, so I’m not too worried about it.

Perlite is overly lightweight as is coir. The slightest wind storm can wreak havoc with lightweight pots and
potting medium.

Heard this, already had the common juniper fall over multiple times and don’t even know what thats potted in.

My main reason for perlite and coir is cost, I don’t work so have very limited income on disability and soil mixes with all the different components already nearly scared me off from even wanting to dip my toe into the hobby once as I was worried it’d be too expensive and complicated, got overwhelemed and gave up before I’d ever gotten a plant. It may not be the fanciest or ‘best’ mix but it still would have some of the basic qualitys we’d look for in soils, and would be miles better than topsoil, thats for sure. I also don’t have anywhere to store excess material, so less things to worry about storing, the better. Now, if I can find a pre-mixed blend that is suitable and affordable here in the UK, I’m not opposed to it if thats definitly the superior option.

It does not appear to be compacted so we don’t know last potting. More safe to wait till next
year to work the roots.

Agreed, it doesn’t look compacted, has maybe 2 roots out the base of the pot but not very long.

Focus on gaining health this year and learn the care for it and observe it.
It is best to focus on potting up 1st, keeping foliage to aid recovery.
Aim to do root work next Spring. I think it needs to gain vigor 1st.

Just to make sure I’m understanding correctly, are you suggesting leave it as is for this year or repot it this year just don’t mess with the roots?

You can comb through the foliage with your fingers and remove some offending branches
that are trespassing (bar branches and branches located in inside of curves) with bonsai sheers
scissors, or similar. Leave the rest of the interior foliage. Leave exterior foliage as well, to aid
in recovery next year after potting up.

This makes it sound like suggestion is light pruning this year, then up pot next year?

I guess this is the downside to forums, getting different opinions from different people and then not knowing which route is best

 

[ForeverRaynning]

It lifts out the pot easily which is nice, so been able to get some shots of the roots.

 

[Japonicus]

its cloudy all week

Perfect

I also don’t have anywhere to store excess material, so less things to worry about storing, the better.

Whatever direction your substrate (bonsai substrate isn't really soil IMHO) you will have some left over
or you will not have enough. Only if trying to use a sandwich bag full of sample mix would you maybe not
have left overs enough to speak of. You need some on hand lest a pot blows over or gets knocked to the floor
and you must do an emergency repot. If you're not prepared, failure may be the outcome.

Now, if I can find a pre-mixed blend that is suitable and affordable here in the UK, I’m not opposed to it if thats definitly the superior option.

If it weren't superior and proven, I would not have recommended to wait and do your research on what
to use to better the health of the subject.

are you suggesting leave it as is for this year or repot it this year just don’t mess with the roots?

No repot this year. The foliage in your picture of the procumbens does not express vigor.
It expresses a lack in sunlight or something I cannot put a finger on, be it roots, or a difficiency
in some element, but it needs to gain vigor before you pot it up.
Have a look at post #11 in my previous reply for an example of what vigor means going into a repot.
Though not procumbens, it's vigorous. Procumbens will have tighter darker foliage that is more plump
when it is more robust than what you just received. I'm not saying it is unhealthy, rather it is not robust.

This makes it sound like suggestion is light pruning this year, then up pot next year?

I guess this is the downside to forums, getting different opinions from different people and then not knowing which route is bes

Correct, some light pruning to find the tree within, let light into interior foliage you keep to get stronger inside
and present back budding that can be used. You might keep and use the cascading branches and eliminate
them later or keep and incorporate. You won't know until you get in there. It will also make planting angle more
easy to predict when you do pot it up.

I guess this is the downside to forums, getting different opinions from different people...

I'm not disagreeing with @ShadyStump on anything. Trying to give additional hands on advice that works.
The proposed soil of coir and perlite can work, but is not superior for health of the tree.
Most new to the hobby, are advised to watch the tree for a year. I think with proper carrying out of details
you can do an insult to the subject if it is displaying vigour, which this is not.

The roots in your last picture show good 1st year after last repot. It is advised to remain in this soil
undisturbed and allow roots to take to the soil it is in. Frequent repotting steals vigor.
Watering is going to be the main focus this year, which comes through observation, followed by fertilizing.
Next importantly, sifting through the branches and trunk with your fingers and eyes, being careful not to
overwork bending branches too much, rather gently combing through. Bending the branches is same as wiring.
Too much movement, especially this time of year, is going to damage the cambium layer resulting in death from
that poin,t out to the apical leader of that branch.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

This then led to me clearing some soil off the top (putting it in the bottom of the pot) to get a better look at what I’m working with, didn’t start digging or anything, just gently coaxing the looser soil from the top. Also means it sits a bit higher in the pot which is nice. Also cleared out what few bits of dead foliage I could find internally, theres still the bits on the exterior that are brownish but not sure of they are dead or not so left them for now.

Heres some more pictures.



I really like the sort of twin trunk look it has going on? Couldn’t clean the trunk too much as wasn’t sure what I was looking at, theres some small twigs (like the one in between the two main branches) that don’t go anywhere that i want to remove but my scissors wouldn’t cut them and didn’t want to make a mistake so left it.


Not sure what these are - fertiliser maybe? Or some kind of soil additive?

Heres all the bits I removed, the green small bits where just on the spoil so its probably juat dropped them itself -


And heres the full tree now, I like this as the ‘front’ at the moment -

 

[ForeverRaynning]

If it weren't superior and proven, I would not have recommended to wait and do your research on what
to use to better the health of the subject.

Understood, since I won’t be repotting this year, I can spend the time researching as you suggested. And then can use that time investment to justify to myself maybe spending a bit more on something decent haha.

I'm not saying it is unhealthy, rather it is not robust.

Will have to keep an eye on it, hopefully I’ll be able to spot it becoming more robust. Will this happen to the whole plant or just new growth?

Correct, some light pruning to find the tree within, let light into interior foliage you keep to get stronger inside
and present back budding that can be used.

I think I’m on the way towards finding the tree, and haven’t really pruned it I suppose so I don’t think it’ll want to backbud but didn’t want to start cutting healthy bits off when I’m not sure what I’m doing yet, can't exactly stick it back on again after if I decide I made a mistake haha.

I'm not disagreeing with @ShadyStump on anything. Trying to give additional hands on advice that works.

I wasn’t implying you were, sorry if it came off this way, it was more a general statement rather than a reply to anyone in particular, I appreciate your input and advice!

Watering is going to be the main focus this year, which comes through observation, followed by fertilizing.

Learning to water will certainly be an ongoing process, need to work out the best test method for me, I know pot weight is one, finger test is another, not sure if I’m able to do the finger test properly though, maybe that comes with experience.

Is it better to err on the side of too dry than too wet?

Bending the branches is same as wiring.
Too much movement, especially this time of year, is going to damage the cambium layer resulting in death from
that poin,t out to the apical leader of that branch.

Makes sense, I was able to squat down and look at it from underneath so did most of my investigating from underneath, only gently reaching in from the top if there were dead parts I couldn’t reach from underneath, so don’t think I’ve bent anything so we should be good.