Questions about Overwintering tropicals...

[SU2]

So this is my first year really diving into bonsai. I've had a few for the last could years but treated em like houseplants. This year my collection has grown from like 4 to 30 or so, most from nursery material that I've pruned and trained. I built benches in my backyard and had some great growth this year. Oddly here in Texas we had a weekend in November where we hit the upper 30s.

I'm fortunate that my office has a nice windowed area that I was able to use for overwintering my tropicals. I brought them all in before the big temp drop. The ficuses and most others seems very happy and have new growth. The ming aralia had some yellowing and dropped about 10-15% of hit leaves. But its stabilized.

My question is about the Brazilian rain tree. It was fine for about the first 2 weeks, then it started to yellow dramatically. Its lost about 30% of it leaves. Now after a month, although its pushing new shoots in a couple places there are still new yellow leaves almost everyday. It gets about 5 hours of good light where its at. I typically water thoroughly Monday/Friday and light watering on Wednesday as well as misting them a couple times a day. Should I be worried about the BRT still dropping leaves after being inside for a month? It doesn't seem like its acclimating like the others.

Lastly, should I fertilize the tropicals over the winter?

great looking setup!! The BRT always looks like a royal poinciana to me...unsure how to even tell them apart lol

Wish I could setup indoors like that, you really did a good job!

 

[SU2]

I would put a wooden skewer in the soil so you can monitor the wetness of the soil on that BRT. They do not like to dry out either, and will drop leaves if they've dried out at some point. I still think it's probably old leaves, but skewers can be a good water diagnostic tool. Seedling heat mats, to keep the roots warm are bonus if your window is ever chilly. Here's my BRT that I just defoliated, it's starting to pop the new leaves now.
View attachment 171243

Are you referring to un-treated chopsticks? So you can just pull it out and see how moist it is? Sounds like an incredibly obvious, great idea! I've been using lava rocks half-submerged into my substrates to gauge moisture....when the bottoms of a 1/2"-sunk lava rock are dry, I water

 

[SU2]

According to Walter Pall, all of them. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html

(caveats: summer time, non-organic substrate, very heavy watering).

Not everyone agrees with him. But his logic holds for how I water in the summer (when I don't have to manage run-off). The idea is that as long as you are watering enough to prevent salt buildup in the soil, you can't overfertilize, because trees will only take what they can use.

I'm using a combination of cakes + monthly 1x strength MG for my trees under lights this winter. The ones in with just sunlight (southern window, but we are at < 9 hours/day here right now) I'm leaving to coast on their last hit of MG from the fall.

Have read & studied that article SOOOoooo much lol, my problem is that the fertilizer recommendation is basically "a lot" which doesn't help when I've got my fert & scoops out and am trying to decide! I actually posted a Q in the comments on that article on that topic but didn't get much clarification - am still looking to find what the 'max' optimal #'s are, I've got mostly bougies and they grow fast so I'm planning to have a VERY productive growing-season this year, I just still haven't figured out how much nitro I can safely pump into them, I know "a lot" but can't get hard #'s (how quickly would a bougie show over-fertilization? Maybe I'll just choose a crappy-quality specimen that I don't care much about and try to hurt it by overfertilization, to get an idea where the upper-limits are - it bothered me to no end last growing-season, not knowing whether I was applying the right amount or if I could've doubled / tripled it!!)

 

[JudyB]

Are you referring to un-treated chopsticks? So you can just pull it out and see how moist it is? Sounds like an incredibly obvious, great idea! I've been using lava rocks half-submerged into my substrates to gauge moisture....when the bottoms of a 1/2"-sunk lava rock are dry, I water

I use untreated wooden skewers like you'd use for kebabs. They are skinnier than chopsticks, so don't disturb the soils as much.

 

[Rodrigo]

Have read & studied that article SOOOoooo much lol, my problem is that the fertilizer recommendation is basically "a lot" which doesn't help when I've got my fert & scoops out and am trying to decide! I actually posted a Q in the comments on that article on that topic but didn't get much clarification - am still looking to find what the 'max' optimal #'s are, I've got mostly bougies and they grow fast so I'm planning to have a VERY productive growing-season this year, I just still haven't figured out how much nitro I can safely pump into them, I know "a lot" but can't get hard #'s (how quickly would a bougie show over-fertilization? Maybe I'll just choose a crappy-quality specimen that I don't care much about and try to hurt it by overfertilization, to get an idea where the upper-limits are - it bothered me to no end last growing-season, not knowing whether I was applying the right amount or if I could've doubled / tripled it!!)

If I'm not mistaken, I believe he said that he uses 3-4 times the amount that the instructions on the package say. He also mentions that he fertilize every 10 days with heave watering in between.

I've started his regiment recently with mine and I'm seeing good results so far! I'm sure it will take off even more in the spring when it goes back outside.

Regarding the leaf dropping, mine also has also been dropping leaves since I brought it in but only the old leaves. The new ones are bright green and going strong!

 

[Timbo]

No matter what i do my tropicals drop most/all of their leaves when i bring them inside. Most just bud out 1-4 weeks later with the right care.
I run a humidifier most of the time though cause it's just too dry in the winter, they just brown or drop leaves.

 

[sorce]

@Chris Frechette thats a darn nice BRT!

I love the double trunks....and those 2 canopies would kill flat!
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/brazilian-raintree-flat-top.24608/

When it comes to spending $ on a tree already a bonsai/prebonsai, I'm picky as hell...and That is one I would surely scoop!

I learned from Ryan Neil that these things will flatten out where you let a branch run, that trunk flattening is one of my favorite characteristics about BRT.

I feel like people have to keep this in mind, it can be utilized to create a great tree, or forgotten and allowed to ruin one.

Sorce

 

[Petebak]

My blooming BRTs have lost almost all their leaves, so I asked the question if there are difference between BRTs on one of the FB pages and here is what one of the members came back with:
Basically, we find 3 types that developed from the 1st seeds that were brought to Florida many years ago. First, the non-bloomer with short internodes, thorns, darker green color in the leaves and the trunk muscles early in it's life. Second, a bloomer with thorns that has a round trunk when it is young that muscles as it gets very old, longer internodes, thorns, lighter green leaves, and semi-deciduous. Third, (which I think is yours) is like the second type but without thorns. Hope this helps clarify.

Turns out my blooming BRTs are semi-deciduous, I was told to leave them alone and cut back on water, they all have buds waiting to open up but that will not happen until days get longer. Also looks like the trunk on the blooming BRTs do not flatten.

 

[SU2]

I use untreated wooden skewers like you'd use for kebabs. They are skinnier than chopsticks, so don't disturb the soils as much.

This is just so damn smart, I've got tens of pairs of cheap/untreated wooden chopsticks, will grab skewers soon but for now am going to start playing w/ this using the chopsticks, I love this idea thank you!! Using the lava-rocks on the top of the substrate proved less than precise for monitoring moisture!

 

[JudyB]

This is just so damn smart, I've got tens of pairs of cheap/untreated wooden chopsticks, will grab skewers soon but for now am going to start playing w/ this using the chopsticks, I love this idea thank you!! Using the lava-rocks on the top of the substrate proved less than precise for monitoring moisture!

It's been a standard method for long time, I didn't think it up... I usually repeat it to new folks a few times a year, guess I figure everyone knew about it.
But you are welcome!

 

[SU2]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe he said that he uses 3-4 times the amount that the instructions on the package say. He also mentions that he fertilize every 10 days with heave watering in between.

I've started his regiment recently with mine and I'm seeing good results so far! I'm sure it will take off even more in the spring when it goes back outside.

Regarding the leaf dropping, mine also has also been dropping leaves since I brought it in but only the old leaves. The new ones are bright green and going strong!

He does say X times the recommended, but doesn't say what that is (it's of little use to say 3-4x the recommended rate if we don't know whether he means a 10-10-10 or a 24-8-16, yknow?) And damn it's been a while since I've read that page as I would've sworn he fertilized more frequently than e10d!! I probably fertilize every 3-6d, using a mostly-balanced blend, at around 4-4-4, during slow-growth like right now - bougies and crapes are both heavy feeders, I'd worked my way upward w/ fertilizer through spring&summer as I was learning and it just kept working better & better, I didn't hit any point of too-much (at least, I didn't get any symptomatology of having done so!), am very eager for this year, my first real growing-season as a bonsai-gardener, will be entering the season w/ >50 specimen that're rooted&established and ready for vigorous growth, will be doing a massive re-potting at the beginning of spring (as soon as they're starting to ramp-up growth rates) but am still uncertain about what the 'ceiling' is for nitrogen levels....am just planning to have a couple 'sacrifice' specimen that I'll always feed at 25% or 50% more than the rest, let them be my 'canaries in the coal mine' so I can see 'too much fertilizer' in them before the collection as a whole! How quickly does over-fertilization show? I'd imagine quite fast (and am under the impression it can be 'fixed' quite simply/quickly by just flooding the medium- my understanding is that the roots won't take-up excesses and that the damage from over-fertilization is due to the salt-levels in the substrate, ergo you can just wash-out the fertilizer so long as you use proper substrate!)

And re leaf-dropping I think you meant someone else (one of the BRT's referred to earlier), I've got no BRT's just a single royal poinciana which did shed some leaves but that was due to collection (~2mo ago) and is now sporting minimal, but healthy & vigorous, leaves )

 

[SU2]

No matter what i do my tropicals drop most/all of their leaves when i bring them inside. Most just bud out 1-4 weeks later with the right care.
I run a humidifier most of the time though cause it's just too dry in the winter, they just brown or drop leaves.

As I read your 1st sentence my only thought was "gotta be too dry".... are you gauging whether the humidifier is getting their enviro to roughly the same as they're used-to outdoors? Also, are you acclimating them w/ an 'in-between', like a week in the patio before going inside, or straight from a monkey-pole to a window-sill?

 

[sparklemotion]

He does say X times the recommended, but doesn't say what that is (it's of little use to say 3-4x the recommended rate if we don't know whether he means a 10-10-10 or a 24-8-16, yknow?)

Most fertilizers come with a label with a recommended application rate/frequency. I'm pretty sure they might be required by law (but that might just be pesticides/herbicides). For example: Miracle-Gro all purpose: 24-8-16: 1/2 tsp/gallon every 2 weeks. Same rate for Miracid (30-10-10). Biogold Original - 12-15 pellets in a 6" pot every 6-7 weeks. Dyna-Gro (7-9-5) 1/4-1/2 tsp/gallon every watering etc. Those recommended labels are going to be undershoots, because the manufacturers know that lots of people are likely to err on the side of a little bit more sugar, when in doubt (a heaping "scoop" of one of the MG 1/2 tsp scoops is easily more than double/triple a "level" amount).

but am still uncertain about what the 'ceiling' is for nitrogen levels....am just planning to have a couple 'sacrifice' specimen that I'll always feed at 25% or 50% more than the rest, let them be my 'canaries in the coal mine' so I can see 'too much fertilizer' in them before the collection as a whole!

I am pretty sure you are overthinking this, by a lot. As long as the tree gets watered, and the soil is well draining, I bet you'll hit a financially problematic rate of fertilization before you hit a horticulturally problematic one. There's definitely diminishing returns that will happen after a point, but you've got to go well past that point to really hurt a tree that gets flushed regularly.

If you want to min/max, then yeah, running some experiments is a good idea. Figure out how to measure total salts (conductivity meters are ~$150), and track what works for what species, and when. Then publish an ebook -- I'll buy it.

 

[SU2]

Firstly, thank you very much for such a thoroughly informative reply

Most fertilizers come with a label with a recommended application rate/frequency. I'm pretty sure they might be required by law (but that might just be pesticides/herbicides).

I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that it's just pesticides/herbicides, they're actually surprisingly aggressive (try mentioning on Reddit that you're using Termidor as a DIY'er and you'll get a representative warning it's illegal!), but for fertilizers I'd just bet there's zero chance I mean these are plant supplements and we hardly regulate human supplements (I've got a lot of experience in the 'bodybuilding/strength'/supplements/FDA world, it's insane how useless they are there - for better or worse!)

For example: Miracle-Gro all purpose: 24-8-16: 1/2 tsp/gallon every 2 weeks. Same rate for Miracid (30-10-10). Biogold Original - 12-15 pellets in a 6" pot every 6-7 weeks. Dyna-Gro (7-9-5) 1/4-1/2 tsp/gallon every watering etc.

This is what I'm referring to as problematic - I've got the regular 24.8.16 MG, and I've got Biotone 3.4.4 - when he says "x times the recommended rate", that's useless when "recommended rate" varies so wildly between products....for such an iconic, 'go-to' article as the 'plain english water/substrate/fert' write-up, it'd really boost its quality if he'd done the #'s in a way people could translate to any fertilizer yknow? I'm unsure if one of us is talking past the other in this regard, in reading your reply I fear you misunderstood my concern in the 1st place - w/o knowing *what* the fertilizer's #'s are, then "Xtimes the recommended rate" is just a completely meaningless/immeasurable value @Walter Pall, would love to hear your thoughts on this if you've got a moment to clarify

Those recommended labels are going to be undershoots, because the manufacturers know that lots of people are likely to err on the side of a little bit more sugar, when in doubt (a heaping "scoop" of one of the MG 1/2 tsp scoops is easily more than double/triple a "level" amount).

I'm not so sure about that - MG's 24-8-16 seems 'strong', am worried a quadrupling of their application-rate would be too much (but don't know obvi!), but FWIW I'm incredibly precise in my measuring, I make days'-worth of liquid fert by mixing it up real concentrated, and then use ~1oz in my watering-bucket, so application-rates are definitely wherever I choose

I am pretty sure you are overthinking this, by a lot.

Why would this be over-thinking? I'm prone to doing that, so would very much want to know if that's the case here, but so far as I'm thinking I've got a collection of mostly bougies (and then some crapes), all are very fast growers and abnormally-hungry feeders, so it'd be a shame to be using just 60% of their 'optimal' nitrogen levels through the coming growing-season yknow? I built-up ~50 bonsai ('stock'/'pre-bonsai', really) this past year, and w/ it being established now, I want to hit this growing-season perfectly, and would definitely not want to be using 60% of the nitro I should've been using for max growth!

As long as the tree gets watered, and the soil is well draining, I bet you'll hit a financially problematic rate of fertilization before you hit a horticulturally problematic one. There's definitely diminishing returns that will happen after a point, but you've got to go well past that point to really hurt a tree that gets flushed regularly.

I can't say I agree that you'd hit a financial problem before a horticultural one, *if* that's the case then that means I should/could be using *many* times more fert than I've ever used (I just got 5lbs of MG's 24.8.16 for ~$6 or 7....very cheap!!)
I know there's most-certainly a scale of diminishing-returns the more you use, and I'm fine w/ being a bit wasteful w/ the fertilizer, I just want to maximize the nitro my trees take-up is all and am happy to pay a little extra on inefficiently-used fert to achieve that, it's just the worry of hurting a tree - the 'canaries in coal mines' trees will be good forecasts of how they're responding - my media lets me flush quickly if anything was ever over-fertilized but I just want to make sure there's no growth restrictions due to lack of nitro (a most common limiting-factor in growth rates!)

I've yet to even get a pH kit to know how well my plants are absorbing what they're given but I've got another thread going now w/ what I need to buy to start monitoring pH

If you want to min/max, then yeah, running some experiments is a good idea. Figure out how to measure total salts (conductivity meters are ~$150), and track what works for what species, and when. Then publish an ebook -- I'll buy it.

I wonder if there's not a cheaper way to test than a conductivity meter? Maybe a TDS(total dissolved solids) device could work? Do conductivity meters distinguish the macronutrients or only tell you the total amongst them?

Any&everything you could tell me about "too much fertilizer" would be greatly appreciated - during growing season, for instance, can I do 2-3x the recommended-rate for my go-to "growth fert", which is MG's 24-8-16, through the growing season? They say 'every 7-14d' for this formula, so if I tripled their high-end estimate, I'd be doing a full 24-8-16 fertilization 3x weekly during the growing season - that sounds unsafe to me, but if I'm wrong and that's not unsafe but rather "normal 'heavy' feeding" then I'd really like to know!! And

Regardless though I'll certainly be running experiments, I keep a pretty detailed nursery-journal so can track such things pretty well - however as mentioned I won't really be able to share anything useful for anything besides bougies, I just don't have enough crapes to really experiment w/ them like the bougies so no e-books will be coming (nor could I ever charge for sharing knowledge, am already WAY too-deeply indebted to others who've taught me )

 

[sparklemotion]

Firstly, thank you very much for such a thoroughly informative reply

I hope we're both aware that this is the blind leading the blind here -- eventually someone with a clue with step in to correct us both, I'm sure.

This is what I'm referring to as problematic - I've got the regular 24.8.16 MG, and I've got Biotone 3.4.4 - when he says "x times the recommended rate", that's useless when "recommended rate" varies so wildly between products....for such an iconic, 'go-to' article as the 'plain english water/substrate/fert' write-up, it'd really boost its quality if he'd done the #'s in a way people could translate to any fertilizer yknow? I'm unsure if one of us is talking past the other in this regard, in reading your reply I fear you misunderstood my concern in the 1st place - w/o knowing *what* the fertilizer's #'s are, then "Xtimes the recommended rate" is just a completely meaningless/immeasurable value @Walter Pall, would love to hear your thoughts on this if you've got a moment to clarify

Xtimes the recommended rate does work for any fertilizer, because you use Xtimes the rate that was recommended by the manufacturer of your particular fertilizer. Let's take the Biotone 3.4.4 (I assume you're referring to Garden-Tone 3-4-4): https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/. The recommended rate is 1.5 tsp/4" of pot diameter. 3x the recommended rate would be 4.5tsp/4" of pot diameter. Now, if you've got a slow-release like the Biotone product in the soil, you might want to consider that when you decide how much of a MG boost you want to try on your plants. But I'd bet you a 1 gallon nursery juniper that 3x biotone monthly + 2x MG weekly will not hurt a healthy tree that gets enough water.

I'm not so sure about that - MG's 24-8-16 seems 'strong', am worried a quadrupling of their application-rate would be too much

I think we are in agreement on this: When upping the amount of fertilizer, there will be a point (A) where you are providing more than the plant can use, and somewhere above that there is a point (B) where you start harming the plant.

Where I think our hunches deviate is that I have a feeling that the distance between A and B is very large (especially with regular watering). You seem to think that the distance between A and B is small, especially relative to the distance between the manufacturer's rate and A.

Why would this be over-thinking?

To me, it seems like you are overthinking because (I think) the distance between A and B is super large if your trees are in a mostly bonsai soil, and are getting watered regularly. So, I don't see the harm in boosting the fertilizer amount until you feel like you're not seeing benefits anymore (or just going with a 2-4x rule of thumb). Maybe you won't be giving your bougies 100% of the nutrition they could use, or maybe you'll be wasting a bunch of nutrients. But slight underfeeding is a minor factor compared to everything else that could happen to your garden over a season, and like you say, fertilizer is cheap.

Any&everything you could tell me about "too much fertilizer" would be greatly appreciated - during growing season, for instance, can I do 2-3x the recommended-rate for my go-to "growth fert", which is MG's 24-8-16, through the growing season? They say 'every 7-14d' for this formula, so if I tripled their high-end estimate, I'd be doing a full 24-8-16 fertilization 3x weekly during the growing season - that sounds unsafe to me, but if I'm wrong and that's not unsafe but rather "normal 'heavy' feeding" then I'd really like to know!!

I can tell you that I applied at least 2x MG's recommended rate (1 tsp/gallon vs 0.5 tsp/gallon) every seven days last summer, and my plants didn't seem to mind. But there's a difference between increasing the amount per feeding, and increasing the frequency of the feedings -- if you're applying fertilizer 3x per week, you're reducing the number of "clean" waterings that are helping to wash excess salts out. Regardless of how far apart A and B are, I'd be less cavalier about dosage if I were feeding more regularly.

I've never actually *seen* an over-fertilized plant. From what I've read, the plant will wilt like it doesn't have enough water (which is true...too high of a salt concentration screws up the osmosis in the roots), and the gardener's natural reaction to a wilting plant is to water it. Flushing water through the soil will work to fix the salt concentration. So, if you did overfeed a tree, you'd end up fixing it without necessarily realizing that that's what you're doing.

I wonder if there's not a cheaper way to test than a conductivity meter? Maybe a TDS(total dissolved solids) device could work? Do conductivity meters distinguish the macronutrients or only tell you the total amongst them?

I'm definitely out on a ledge of a B+ in chemistry and some googling, but I'm pretty sure that TDS meters are just EC (electrical conductivity) meters with a different skin. It is interesting how much cheaper they seem to be though. I doubt that either meter could distinguish macronutrients. I'm at work so I don't want to follow all of these links, but it seems like the hydroponics folks have put a lot of thought into this (for good reason).

Regardless though I'll certainly be running experiments, I keep a pretty detailed nursery-journal so can track such things pretty well - however as mentioned I won't really be able to share anything useful for anything besides bougies, I just don't have enough crapes to really experiment w/ them like the bougies so no e-books will be coming (nor could I ever charge for sharing knowledge, am already WAY too-deeply indebted to others who've taught me )

I'm always grateful for what people are willing to share -- but I'm also willing to fork out money to support the folks who are developing knowledge, so that they can afford to keep doing so.

 

[Rodrigo]

I hope we're both aware that this is the blind leading the blind here -- eventually someone with a clue with step in to correct us both, I'm sure.



Xtimes the recommended rate does work for any fertilizer, because you use Xtimes the rate that was recommended by the manufacturer of your particular fertilizer. Let's take the Biotone 3.4.4 (I assume you're referring to Garden-Tone 3-4-4): https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/. The recommended rate is 1.5 tsp/4" of pot diameter. 3x the recommended rate would be 4.5tsp/4" of pot diameter. Now, if you've got a slow-release like the Biotone product in the soil, you might want to consider that when you decide how much of a MG boost you want to try on your plants. But I'd bet you a 1 gallon nursery juniper that 3x biotone monthly + 2x MG weekly will not hurt a healthy tree that gets enough water.



I think we are in agreement on this: When upping the amount of fertilizer, there will be a point (A) where you are providing more than the plant can use, and somewhere above that there is a point (B) where you start harming the plant.

Where I think our hunches deviate is that I have a feeling that the distance between A and B is very large (especially with regular watering). You seem to think that the distance between A and B is small, especially relative to the distance between the manufacturer's rate and A.



To me, it seems like you are overthinking because (I think) the distance between A and B is super large if your trees are in a mostly bonsai soil, and are getting watered regularly. So, I don't see the harm in boosting the fertilizer amount until you feel like you're not seeing benefits anymore (or just going with a 2-4x rule of thumb). Maybe you won't be giving your bougies 100% of the nutrition they could use, or maybe you'll be wasting a bunch of nutrients. But slight underfeeding is a minor factor compared to everything else that could happen to your garden over a season, and like you say, fertilizer is cheap.



I can tell you that I applied at least 2x MG's recommended rate (1 tsp/gallon vs 0.5 tsp/gallon) every seven days last summer, and my plants didn't seem to mind. But there's a difference between increasing the amount per feeding, and increasing the frequency of the feedings -- if you're applying fertilizer 3x per week, you're reducing the number of "clean" waterings that are helping to wash excess salts out. Regardless of how far apart A and B are, I'd be less cavalier about dosage if I were feeding more regularly.

I've never actually *seen* an over-fertilized plant. From what I've read, the plant will wilt like it doesn't have enough water (which is true...too high of a salt concentration screws up the osmosis in the roots), and the gardener's natural reaction to a wilting plant is to water it. Flushing water through the soil will work to fix the salt concentration. So, if you did overfeed a tree, you'd end up fixing it without necessarily realizing that that's what you're doing.



I'm definitely out on a ledge of a B+ in chemistry and some googling, but I'm pretty sure that TDS meters are just EC (electrical conductivity) meters with a different skin. It is interesting how much cheaper they seem to be though. I doubt that either meter could distinguish macronutrients. I'm at work so I don't want to follow all of these links, but it seems like the hydroponics folks have put a lot of thought into this (for good reason).



I'm always grateful for what people are willing to share -- but I'm also willing to fork out money to support the folks who are developing knowledge, so that they can afford to keep doing so.

I mostly agree with everything you wrote. Walter mentions to use ANY fertilizer available, and just like you mentioned, just up the quantity on the instructions 3-4x. He goes on to say that he uses any liquid fertilizer, organic or not, on his trees. Along with chicken manure twice a year.

If you go back and read Walter's article, AND the comments after it , in which he take the time to answer all questions, you will see that he talks about 3 points that will ensure you don't over-fertilize. 1. Using even sized modern bonsai substrate (lava, pumice, turface, etc. Not organic matter) that allows for very well drainage. 2. Feeding - as we've mentioned, 3-4 x the amount on the box every 10 days from April to October, plus the chicken manure. And 3. Watering - he waters EVERY tree, EVERY day, the exact same. "Water until you think it's good, and then water some more."

With the combination of these 3 rules, it is impossible to over fertilize and over water. Any salt that accumulates at the bottom is washed out during watering. He even mentions that he would do it more often but doesn't have the time to do so. Any time anyone asks a question in the comments whether they should change this, or do that, he says that if you're not going to do all 3 things, then to not do it at all because it won't work. So, if you have good substrate and you water heavily, you can fertilize 3 or 4 times the recommended dose on any fertilizer, as the tree only takes up what it needs. That's what I've been doing since I read the article and have been getting great results.

Just like you said though, I'm always open to learn new things from people who try experimenting with different things and share their results.

 

[SU2]

I hope we're both aware that this is the blind leading the blind here -- eventually someone with a clue with step in to correct us both, I'm sure.

Don't undersell us, we may not be chemists but we're not ignoramuses either

(just got where you username's from, love it!)

Xtimes the recommended rate does work for any fertilizer, because you use Xtimes the rate that was recommended by the manufacturer of your particular fertilizer. Let's take the Biotone 3.4.4 (I assume you're referring to Garden-Tone 3-4-4): https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/. The recommended rate is 1.5 tsp/4" of pot diameter. 3x the recommended rate would be 4.5tsp/4" of pot diameter. Now, if you've got a slow-release like the Biotone product in the soil, you might want to consider that when you decide how much of a MG boost you want to try on your plants. But I'd bet you a 1 gallon nursery juniper that 3x biotone monthly + 2x MG weekly will not hurt a healthy tree that gets enough water.

Totally disagree with you here- I've re-read this passage and think I'm getting what you mean, if so then of course it matters - some fertilizers' recommendations are weak, others are strong - I couldn't care less what any particular fertilizer thinks is best, rather I care about what #'s are optimal for my trees and doing x-times-recommended means different levels depending upon product, ergo the fertilization levels would inherently differ based on what you bought, that's why the "x-times-reco'd" doesn't work unless there was a constant, some #'s that were the starting point. Using 2x the reco's for biotone, and using 2x the reco for MG, would result in absurdly different levels of NPK going into the containers, that's why there's got to be some constant and "generic label" isn't a constant there's everything from 1-1-1 to 20-20-20 out there yknow?

I think we are in agreement on this: When upping the amount of fertilizer, there will be a point (A) where you are providing more than the plant can use, and somewhere above that there is a point (B) where you start harming the plant.

Where I think our hunches deviate is that I have a feeling that the distance between A and B is very large (especially with regular watering). You seem to think that the distance between A and B is small, especially relative to the distance between the manufacturer's rate and A.

Yup!! *This* is where I was hoping @Walter Pall would come to clarify, because your assessment on where our instincts differ is spot-on, I've got a feeling that the difference between A and B isn't that
big, and that it's certainly small-enough that I'd be real worried of hurting plants if I did 2x the label for MG's 24-8-16 (ie that it's not 'wasteful', I don't care about that here, but that using 48-16-32 would/could actually be unsafe)

And yeah I guess I'd have thought that MG's 24-8-16 would be somewhere within-range of B, you don't - here I think 'blind leading the blind' is certainly the case, and hope Walter chimes-in because this is such a critical part of the subject matter he otherwise covers so comprehensively...Like, I don't care about wasting $ because I poured more NPK into the containers than they could use, fertilizer is cheap enough; further, and am sure this is obvious but still worth mentioning, it's definitely a 'diminishing returns' situation, like going from 10% "RDA" nitro to 20% would be a FAR bigger benefit for the plant than going from 80% to 90% would....and again you're right I was thinking the difference between 'RDA' (recommended daily allowance ;P ) and being detrimental to the plant wouldn't be *that* large a difference, hence wanting to really be sure because I'm trying to find the #'s that put me at 105% RDA so i can waste a little, knowing they're as fed-as-possible w/o incurring harm from way-too-much due to simply winging it on wild estimates of "2x whatever particular MG formula you happened to have"

To me, it seems like you are overthinking because (I think) the distance between A and B is super large if your trees are in a mostly bonsai soil, and are getting watered regularly. So, I don't see the harm in boosting the fertilizer amount until you feel like you're not seeing benefits anymore (or just going with a 2-4x rule of thumb).

I disagree because if I were to approach this in a peace-meal way, upping it bit by bit, first off I'd waste half my growing-season getting up to the point of 'optimal' (and potential issue from having crossed that line, if A and B are far closer than you suspect - I can't say I have strong feelings on that, I'd just be guessing how far A and B are), nevermind that going with visible results is a terrible way to assess what's best (there's so many other variables, for instance if 30N was the 'optimal', and I was getting that by using 5x the dose of some 6%nitro product, I could be inadvertently over-dosing some micronutrient w/o noticing)
There's gotta be charts/lists out there w/ rough #'s for what various things can handle, I mean for agricultural/food and timber/lumber industries there's just no way data doesn't exist, am just not sure how on earth I'd ever get there myself - am thinking Walter has a much better idea of the ranges than most others do though!

You mention a 2-4x rule-of-thumb, did you just make that up? If not, did you hear it in a context that'd include MG's 24%nitro? Because, once growing season starts, if I haven't found hard #'s by then, it'd be nice to have a rough starting point - and I'd be starting with 2x, thinking 4x was probably dangerous, so with heavy-feeders like my species I think I'd be better-off going w/ 4x, provided that's an actual rule-of-thumb and you weren't just making it up as an example (sorry but it's just hard for me to tell whether you're saying it generically, or if that's actually a yardstick you've heard elsewhere!)

Maybe you won't be giving your bougies 100% of the nutrition they could use, or maybe you'll be wasting a bunch of nutrients.

As long as the gap between A and B isn't very tight, then I most certainly am not going to be happy with my fertilization until I know I'm hitting at least 90% (and getting there w/ trial&error is so wasteful time-wise, as well as inaccurate because of so many confounding variables, like I mentioned microelements earlier but I could come up with at least a couple others, but there's just gotta be #'s to go from!)
And for me, wasting is irrelevant, I get the stuff very cheap and i've got stuff under much of my benchwork so the fertilizer that comes out of goes to other things anyways

But slight underfeeding is a minor factor compared to everything else that could happen to your garden over a season, and like you say, fertilizer is cheap.

I don't know about that - sunlight is beyond my control, watering is simple, but fertilizing properly is something that I *can* control once I figure it out, and w/o figuring it out it'll be impossible to know if the underfeeding is 'slight' or significant, but it does matter (from wiki's page "Plant Nutrition"'s 'Nutrient Deficiencies' section: "Visual symptoms distinctive enough to be useful in identifying a deficiency are rare. Most deficiencies are multiple and moderate. However, while a deficiency is seldom that of a single nutrient, nitrogen is commonly the nutrient in shortest supply." So I'm eager to figure out what a proper dose is, something like 1x/week of xN-yP-zK, once I know x, y and z I can get the appropriate MG for the base macros, and then figure out my micros from there (iron/mg+/sulfur/etc) )

I can tell you that I applied at least 2x MG's recommended rate (1 tsp/gallon vs 0.5 tsp/gallon) every seven days last summer, and my plants didn't seem to mind. But there's a difference between increasing the amount per feeding, and increasing the frequency of the feedings -- if you're applying fertilizer 3x per week, you're reducing the number of "clean" waterings that are helping to wash excess salts out. Regardless of how far apart A and B are, I'd be less cavalier about dosage if I were feeding more regularly.

Do you mean in-ground plants? They'd surely take higher levels, at least in single-dose applications (and MG's reco' for their 24-18-6 product, actually for *every* one of their products IIRC, is 1 or 1.5TBSP/gal)

If you mean you were putting 2tbsp/gal of 24-8-16 into potted bonsai, that's very useful to know!

I've never actually *seen* an over-fertilized plant. From what I've read, the plant will wilt like it doesn't have enough water (which is true...too high of a salt concentration screws up the osmosis in the roots), and the gardener's natural reaction to a wilting plant is to water it. Flushing water through the soil will work to fix the salt concentration. So, if you did overfeed a tree, you'd end up fixing it without necessarily realizing that that's what you're doing.

ROFL! That's a funny way of looking at it (as I'd never think my trees were wilting due to water, I keep moisture very meticulously in-check and would notice if they were wilting for another reason) but in either case you're right, just flush it - all of my containers have fantastic pour-through, not only is it loose&rinsed substrate but they're younger specimen so there's not huge root-balls in most of the containers, so flushing is very simple&effective!




Thanks for such a thorough reply, I've got the day off so I addressed everything but certainly don't expect you to do so in reply, any thoughts on hard#'s for where 'A' stands though would be great because as-mentioned I'm going to have some sacrifice-plants that'll be getting double-levels of everything else as I'm upping the levels, I'll be able to hone-in on what's best for my trees in my environment, and - if I can find some rough guideline #'s now - I'll be able to quickly/efficiently figure that out early in the growing season this year

 

[SU2]

I mostly agree with everything you wrote. Walter mentions to use ANY fertilizer available, and just like you mentioned, just up the quantity on the instructions 3-4x. He goes on to say that he uses any liquid fertilizer, organic or not, on his trees. Along with chicken manure twice a year.

If you go back and read Walter's article, AND the comments after it , in which he take the time to answer all questions, you will see that he talks about 3 points that will ensure you don't over-fertilize. 1. Using even sized modern bonsai substrate (lava, pumice, turface, etc. Not organic matter) that allows for very well drainage. 2. Feeding - as we've mentioned, 3-4 x the amount on the box every 10 days from April to October, plus the chicken manure. And 3. Watering - he waters EVERY tree, EVERY day, the exact same. "Water until you think it's good, and then water some more."

With the combination of these 3 rules, it is impossible to over fertilize and over water. Any salt that accumulates at the bottom is washed out during watering. He even mentions that he would do it more often but doesn't have the time to do so. Any time anyone asks a question in the comments whether they should change this, or do that, he says that if you're not going to do all 3 things, then to not do it at all because it won't work. So, if you have good substrate and you water heavily, you can fertilize 3 or 4 times the recommended dose on any fertilizer, as the tree only takes up what it needs. That's what I've been doing since I read the article and have been getting great results.

Just like you said though, I'm always open to learn new things from people who try experimenting with different things and share their results.

I've read it sooo many times (and the comments, one is mine actually), but the thing is- you say "With the combination of these 3 rules, it is impossible to over fertilize and over water." , and while I certainly agree with that, it's not what my problem here is, my problem is that, with the combination of the rules and everything in the article/comments, it is possible to under-fertilize. I've got a collection of stock/pre-bonsai, and they're heavy-feeding/fast-growing specie - I know of bougies that were 2yrs from collection-til-Epcot display - I don't want to "leave anything on the table" when it comes to growth this year, so if the ideal weekly feeding of is 24N, or 55N, that's something I'd realllly like to get to the bottom of (and have been trying a while, no luck thus far)

 

[sparklemotion]

Do you mean in-ground plants? They'd surely take higher levels, at least in single-dose applications (and MG's reco' for their 24-18-6 product, actually for *every* one of their products IIRC, is 1 or 1.5TBSP/gal)

If you mean you were putting 2tbsp/gal of 24-8-16 into potted bonsai, that's very useful to know!

This is where you get to shame me for poor record keeping:

Most of my plants were in nursery pots: 4"-2 gallons. I only used MG for part of the summer, and I threw away the empty container so I can't remember what the NPKs on the version I was using were. The rest of the summer I was using JR Peter's 20-20-20. Recommended rate: 1 tablespoon/gallon every 7-14 days. I was adding at least 1.5 tablespoons/gallon every 7 days (sometimes 2 tablespoons).



Some weeks I would use this Schultz for Acid loving plants (30-10-10) stuff. 1 teaspoon (as opposed to the 0.5 teaspoons recommended):


The plants that got this treatment were in one of: nursery soil, 1:1 oildri/perlite, or 1:1:1 grit/oildri/pine bark.

if the ideal weekly feeding of is 24N, or 55N, that's something I'd realllly like to get to the bottom of (and have been trying a while, no luck thus far)

.

The way that you talk about "24N" makes me wonder what units you think you're working with.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Personal suggestion is to open office blinds completely allowing more radiation into room 24 hours/day. Personal tropicals 2 Cycads, 2 Citrus get best ambient light possible from south facing windows. Very little to zero fertilizer in indoors time Winter. Rest of year is container recommended "houseplant" strength fertilizer once/week except for few plants wanting to give extra boost 2 times/week. Use only H2O soluble fertilizer. Why attract flies/bad smells with crap on soil? Also on matter of extra fertilizer use at least 2 problems arise: Wasting fertilizer and extra unused fertilizer washing out into environment causing problems in native waterways,etc. For example see Mississippi delta dead zone caused by nitrogen from farms/lawn overfertilizing. Even personal small amounts all add to this problem.