Progression of One of My Bald Cypress

[GrimLore]

I have merely stated that tub submersion for BC is unnecessary and can be counterproductive. I've also stated that BC don't "prefer" to be constantly flooded. They grow in water because they CAN not because they prefer it.

Also, there is a big difference between growing a BC in a pond and growing one in a 15" by 6" tub. Those are very different things. The tub is a shallow, unstable environment for water. It heats up quickly, becomes stagnant quickly and the water is unable to hold much O2. The bigger the body of water, the lesser those concerns...

I am not arguing that it requires far more attention, at least here. I must constantly "flush" the water for one. Also as you mentioned heat buildup here can induce far to early budding in early Spring followed by frost killing the foliage. I have left mine in water for entire Winters if the Spring conditions are normal with no ill effect, just good growth. You must understand I have the time to monitor all of my plants closely and adjust as needed.
I must also add I suggest tub growing with proper maintenance to people BUT advise to take them out of the tub from November to March. I do that because most do not have the time or patience to do as I do...
Is it needed - no, does it work properly controlled - yes On the yes side I also see far better growth so I see it worthwhile my time.

Grimmy

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I have merely stated that tub submersion for BC is unnecessary and can be counterproductive. I've also stated that BC don't "prefer" to be constantly flooded. They grow in water because they CAN not because they prefer it.

Also, there is a big difference between growing a BC in a pond and growing one in a 15" by 6" tub. Those are very different things. The tub is a shallow, unstable environment for water. It heats up quickly, becomes stagnant quickly and the water is unable to hold much O2. The bigger the body of water, the lesser those concerns...

If you want to look at "non-submerged" BC, do a search on Gary Marchal's BC...

Yes, I have read your ideas, and I respectfully disagree. I think that you have it backwards, they prefer to be constantly flooded, they grow on land because the CAN, not because they prefer it.

Gary Marchal and others have some nice BC, growing in non submerged pots. But I am sure that most, if not all, started as trees that were collected from a swamp or river bottoms/swamp. You just don't find groves of BC growing where there is not water, at least around here. The Mobile Delta has thousands of them, growing year round, in water, some of it even brackish. Same is true for Mississippi, Louisanna, and Florida. Here, there are huge BC growing out in rivers and bayous that never see any dry conditions. Yeah, you can go and dig one up from the swamp and plant it in non flooded soil and it will live, but I think it is a stretch to say that they prefer it, only. Maybe in the end, it does not matter, they are opportunists and take advantage of the resources available. But in my limited exposure to info on the net concerning BC, it seems that all of the large ones with the heavily fluted bases have came from a swap, delta, or lowlands where they grow in water. I haven't seen anyone claim that theirs came from an always "dry" location.

I have taken temperature measurements of the water and it gets no warmer that the soil would in the pot if it were sitting in the sun. I think the water may actually act as a buffer for the heat. I takes a lot of energy to actually heat water, more so than a pot sitting in the sun. I don't let the water get stagnant in my tubs, they get flushed regularly. Each year, my trees fill their pots and the lower portion of the tub with roots, so the seem to thrive in my conditions.

Again, no disrespect intended, just a difference of opinion.

 

[rockm]

Y'all need to get a copy of the book "Bald Cypress--The Tree Unique, the Wood Eternal." Published back in the 1980's and now rare, the book explains research, habitats and other stuff in detail including research that shows the varying kinds of growth due to location.

The book is an eye opener. It's not easy to find, but if you've got more than one BC, it's worth the $. I bought mine long ago from Dale Cochoy. No Bald Cypress don't grow submerged 24/7/365 because they prefer it, according to the research quoted in it.

Your conditions are its home territory. You can probably grow the species just about anywhere...

As for the thought that your water acts as a buffer against heat, if that's so it works in reverse at night. Water will hold onto heat longer than air. Overnight is a crucial time for tree and plant photosynthesis. High root temps are not great during overnight.

 

[rockm]

As for the lack of cypress on drier sites in the South, trees on non-swampy sites are more easily logged...May not account for all of that space, but I'd bet it accounts for a significant portion. Logging also explains why you're seeing bigger trees in standing water. Not worth the trouble of logging those

 

[rockm]

Exerpts from pages 77-78 from the book "Bald Cypress--The Tree Unique-The Wood Eternal---"The major effect of flooding produces and anaerobic environment around the roots. Short term effects include changes in roots and hormones, while long-term responses have impact on photosynthesis and growth (Teskey and Hinckley, 1977). The ability to supply oxygen to the roots is the major factor in survival of the plant when flooding occurs.

Bald cypress is able to withstand flooding by flowing water for longer periods than by standing water due apparently to lower concentration of oxygen in standing water. Cool water is also less damaging than warm water to vegetation during flooding because the oxygen-holding capacity of cool water is greater (Broadfoot and Wilson, 1973)....
the growth of this species is improved by saturated soil conditions (Dickson, Broyer and Johnson, 1972)

The growth of baldcypress in permanently standing water has been a botanical puzzle to those not acquainted with southern forests. This was intensified when research demonstrated that seedlings could not grow totally submerged....

Generally trees in shallow water are less stressed than those in deep water, with three feet being the depth at which the probability for death increases...

Increment borings by senior author on baldcypress along the margin of Lake Verreet, La. revealed three rates of growth. The three lifecycles indicate life in the swamp, as a shoreline tree and in the permanent flooding condition. Life in the swamp and along the shoreline revealed better growth than in lake waters..."

There is a lot more along these lines...

All this means, to me anyway, that bald cypress prefers WET soil, not submersion. If you're growing your tree in a tub, you'd better be changing the water daily and shading it from the sun.

Also, the fact that bald cypress drown in four feet of water over time, is an indicator to me, anyway, that they grow in water because they CAN not because they prefer it.

 

[rockm]

BTW, I have never said BC like bone dry soil. I grown mine in a 80/20 mix of potting soil and sand for over 15 years now. I keep that soil wet--saturated.

However, BC can, and do, thrive in sites that aren't constantly wet. They are tough trees.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I have seen the book, and read some/most of it. A friend of mine has a copy, but much like the bonsai books from the same period, I feel that most of the material presented is out of date. Science has advanced greatly since it was written, and much of what you quoted is not what I have observed. BC are as common as mosquitos here. There are BC growing in the delta in at least 6 feet of water, three and four feet in diameter with knees sticking out of the water a foot or more, I have caught many crappie around them, fishing with five feet below the bobber and not dragging bottom. When I drive across the causeway that goes across the upper part of Mobile Bay, there are numerous trees growing in the muck in one to two feet of brackish water. Not two miles from home, there is an area of stagnant swamp that never has any tidal movement that is filled with BC and just a hundred yards away, there are none among the oaks and pines that grow there, only in and on the edge do you find BC. The only ones that I see on "dry" land are the ones planted in parking lots and medians, planted by man.

For the record, I did not say that you said they like bone dry soil, I used dry in quotes to mean non-saturated or not swamp or river/bayou. I is pretty evident that they will grow anywhere that they get sufficient water, only I think they do better in swamp conditions and it is swamp conditions that cause the fluted bases that we all love. The ones that I see in parking lots and medians are 12 - 18 inches in diameter, but have no fluting, just a regular trunk.

Just for fun, while I was trimming trees today, I took a few measurements on the temperature of the water in my set up. It appears that the water is a buffer and actually keeps the roots cooler that the air. Here is what I observed (the first temp is the air temp and the second is the water temp):

1 PM 93.2 89.6
2 PM 95.9 91.4
3PM 96.8 93.2
4PM 95.0 93.4

7PM 89.6 89.6
8PM 87.8 87.8
9PM 84.2 86.0
10PM 84.2 84.2

I did not get to take the measurements at 5 and 6 because I had run some errands with my wife, but as you can see, the water temp stayed below the air temp during the hottest part of the day. I will check it in the morning when I get up and see where it starts. But, as you can see, the water heating up is not an issue. When I look at the bottom of the tub, I see roots already escaping the pot and filling the bottom. I don't think they would grow so prolifically if conditions weren't ideal. The tree was repotted just this year. Does your tree, growing in regular substrate, produce such rootage?

Again, no disrespect intended, just my side of the story.

 

[rockm]

I have seen the book, and read some/most of it. A friend of mine has a copy, but much like the bonsai books from the same period, I feel that most of the material presented is out of date. Science has advanced greatly since it was written, and much of what you quoted is not what I have observed. BC are as common as mosquitos here. There are BC growing in the delta in at least 6 feet of water, three and four feet in diameter with knees sticking out of the water a foot or more, I have caught many crappie around them, fishing with five feet below the bobber and not dragging bottom. When I drive across the causeway that goes across the upper part of Mobile Bay, there are numerous trees growing in the muck in one to two feet of brackish water. Not two miles from home, there is an area of stagnant swamp that never has any tidal movement that is filled with BC and just a hundred yards away, there are none among the oaks and pines that grow there, only in and on the edge do you find BC. The only ones that I see on "dry" land are the ones planted in parking lots and medians, planted by man.

For the record, I did not say that you said they like bone dry soil, I used dry in quotes to mean non-saturated or not swamp or river/bayou. I is pretty evident that they will grow anywhere that they get sufficient water, only I think they do better in swamp conditions and it is swamp conditions that cause the fluted bases that we all love. The ones that I see in parking lots and medians are 12 - 18 inches in diameter, but have no fluting, just a regular trunk.

Just for fun, while I was trimming trees today, I took a few measurements on the temperature of the water in my set up. It appears that the water is a buffer and actually keeps the roots cooler that the air. Here is what I observed (the first temp is the air temp and the second is the water temp):

1 PM 93.2 89.6
2 PM 95.9 91.4
3PM 96.8 93.2
4PM 95.0 93.4

7PM 89.6 89.6
8PM 87.8 87.8
9PM 84.2 86.0
10PM 84.2 84.2

I did not get to take the measurements at 5 and 6 because I had run some errands with my wife, but as you can see, the water temp stayed below the air temp during the hottest part of the day. I will check it in the morning when I get up and see where it starts. But, as you can see, the water heating up is not an issue. When I look at the bottom of the tub, I see roots already escaping the pot and filling the bottom. I don't think they would grow so prolifically if conditions weren't ideal. The tree was repotted just this year. Does your tree, growing in regular substrate, produce such rootage?

Again, no disrespect intended, just my side of the story.

I am not unfamiliar with BC. I also have personal experience with the species having been a frequent visitor and resident of East and Gulf Coast Texas. Have relatives that logged the species for decades.

I would welcome any information backed by research that shows the book's information is outdated.

FWIW, it is NOT a 'bonsai book." It was sponsored by Louisiana State University, and other botanists and scientists, and written by authors who wrote frequently about the species.

There is more current research backing the book
http://www.lsuagcenter.com/portals/...ldcypress-site-relationships-and-silviculture

 

[jeanluc83]

I grown mine in a 80/20 mix of potting soil and sand for over 15 years now. I keep that soil wet--saturated.

It seems like the concern over growing BC submerged is that the roots would quickly deplete the oxygen in the water and create an anaerobic environment. Would this not also happen with an organic soil that is saturated?

I have one BC. I use a 50/50 organic/inorganic mix in a pond basket placed in a tray with 1-2" of water. I change out the water completely about once a week but it gets refilled once a day. The water will go down an inch on a hot day. I've gotten lots of growth the past two years. I'm letting it grow freely this year. Next spring I will repot and cut back again to see what I have.

 

[markyscott]

There was a study on the effect of submerging Bald Cypress. It's called:

Chiplis, D.J., 1990, Effect of Flooding on Trunk Diameter in Bald Cypress and its Application as a Bonsai Technique, ABS Journal 29, pp 13-16.

If anyone wants a copy, send me a pm with your email address and I'll send you a PDF

Scott

 

[rockm]

It seems like the concern over growing BC submerged is that the roots would quickly deplete the oxygen in the water and create an anaerobic environment. Would this not also happen with an organic soil that is saturated?

I have one BC. I use a 50/50 organic/inorganic mix in a pond basket placed in a tray with 1-2" of water. I change out the water completely about once a week but it gets refilled once a day. The water will go down an inch on a hot day. I've gotten lots of growth the past two years. I'm letting it grow freely this year. Next spring I will repot and cut back again to see what I have.

The roots don't deplete the oxygen. The water can't carry as much O2 as the atmosphere. It's ability to carry O2 declines as the water temp increases.
Here is an explainer:
http://watermonitoring.uwex.edu/pdf/level1/FactSeries-DissolvedOxygen.pdf

and a table of dissolved oxygen carrying capabilities--note that 86 F is about 30 degrees C...
http://www.dep.wv.gov/WWE/getinvolved/sos/Documents/SOSKit/DOSaturation.pdf

A pot exposed to air, even with soggy soil, drains, pulling oxygen from the surrounding air into it.

 

[c54fun]

There was a study on the effect of submerging Bald Cypress. It's called:

Chiplis, D.J., 1990, Effect of Flooding on Trunk Diameter in Bald Cypress and its Application as a Bonsai Technique, ABS Journal 29, pp 13-16.

If anyone wants a copy, send me a pm with your email address and I'll send you a PDF

Scott

Was that the study that pretty much said he gained 40% more growth with flooding?

 

[markyscott]

Was that the study that pretty much said he gained 40% more growth with flooding?

He reported a rate increase in trunk growth with increased duration of flooding. To a point.

Scott

 

[Mellow Mullet]

The roots don't deplete the oxygen. The water can't carry as much O2 as the atmosphere. It's ability to carry O2 declines as the water temp increases.
Here is an explainer:
http://watermonitoring.uwex.edu/pdf/level1/FactSeries-DissolvedOxygen.pdf

and a table of dissolved oxygen carrying capabilities--note that 86 F is about 30 degrees C...
http://www.dep.wv.gov/WWE/getinvolved/sos/Documents/SOSKit/DOSaturation.pdf

A pot exposed to air, even with soggy soil, drains, pulling oxygen from the surrounding air into it.

Thanks for all of your input, but most of the studies that you have presented really have nothing to do with growing bonsai in pots. I know what I have seen with my own eyes and it is contrary to a lot of what is written in those papers, I am speaking of trees growing in the wild.

Dissolved O2 is not really a concern for me as I add water daily and flush it out. Apparently, that is sufficient as I get healthy root growth, and the tree above the soil is thriving. I am not real sure how much O2 is actually pulled into a pot when you water it either.

It appears that growing BC in or out of water is about the same as the soil wars, everyone has their own ideas and techniques that work for them. My intention for this thread was to show off my tree and what I do to grow it, if someone wants to try it, great. If you know a better way, then use it.

 

[BillsBayou]

There was a study on the effect of submerging Bald Cypress. It's called:

Chiplis, D.J., 1990, Effect of Flooding on Trunk Diameter in Bald Cypress and its Application as a Bonsai Technique, ABS Journal 29, pp 13-16.

If anyone wants a copy, send me a pm with your email address and I'll send you a PDF

Scott

Just finished reading this document.. Thanks Scott!

I've done some investigations into the functions of bald cypress knees. My favorite book on BCs is "Baldcypress: The Tree Unique, The Wood Eternal" by Claire A. Brown and Glen N. Montz. Your article sheds more light on an idea as to why knees develop for some bonsai growers while not for others.

Quick answer:
If you want knees, keep the pot flooded and don't cut on the branches. It'll take you a few years, but be patient. You'll need several flooded trees to get knees.

Long answer:
I'm still working on it. There are several theories as to what conditions lead to knee development (not just flooding, but timing of floods and substrates, and how it all relates to the function of knees (not respiration as too many think)). I bounced my ideas off of a botanist at the university where I work. He seems to think that there is some science to back up my hypothesis. If I were to do a full-blown study where all the factors were considered and sample sizes were of a respectible size, I'd calculated that I would need 750 trees. Shit. I'm a computer systems analyst, not a botanist. I couldn't get the funding I'd need for the simple reason that you don't give big bucks for tree research to a guy with a computer science degree and an MBA. Thus, I'm just going to throw every suspected factor (7 factors, at last count) at a dozen flooded trees and if knees develop, I won't know precisely why, but I'd have a method that others could reproduce.

New Wrinkle!
The article mentioned certain root development which they believed to be pre-knees on just two of the trees in their study. This is exciting. I have two trees growing in 7-inch high restaurant bus pans. I have more bus pans and more trees to enter into my experiments. I'll be looking for these pre-knees and keep track of them as they develop. One of the seven techniques I heard for developing knees involved placing a large tile, or flat stone on top of the soil of the flooded pot. The pre-knee roots may be interacting with the stone and encouraging knee development. So many factors!

Thank you thank you thank you for this article. It means a great deal to my research.

 

[markyscott]

Just finished reading this document.. Thanks Scott!

I've done some investigations into the functions of bald cypress knees. My favorite book on BCs is "Baldcypress: The Tree Unique, The Wood Eternal" by Claire A. Brown and Glen N. Montz. Your article sheds more light on an idea as to why knees develop for some bonsai growers while not for others.

Quick answer:
If you want knees, keep the pot flooded and don't cut on the branches. It'll take you a few years, but be patient. You'll need several flooded trees to get knees.

Long answer:
I'm still working on it. There are several theories as to what conditions lead to knee development (not just flooding, but timing of floods and substrates, and how it all relates to the function of knees (not respiration as too many think)). I bounced my ideas off of a botanist at the university where I work. He seems to think that there is some science to back up my hypothesis. If I were to do a full-blown study where all the factors were considered and sample sizes were of a respectible size, I'd calculated that I would need 750 trees. Shit. I'm a computer systems analyst, not a botanist. I couldn't get the funding I'd need for the simple reason that you don't give big bucks for tree research to a guy with a computer science degree and an MBA. Thus, I'm just going to throw every suspected factor (7 factors, at last count) at a dozen flooded trees and if knees develop, I won't know precisely why, but I'd have a method that others could reproduce.

New Wrinkle!
The article mentioned certain root development which they believed to be pre-knees on just two of the trees in their study. This is exciting. I have two trees growing in 7-inch high restaurant bus pans. I have more bus pans and more trees to enter into my experiments. I'll be looking for these pre-knees and keep track of them as they develop. One of the seven techniques I heard for developing knees involved placing a large tile, or flat stone on top of the soil of the flooded pot. The pre-knee roots may be interacting with the stone and encouraging knee development. So many factors!

Thank you thank you thank you for this article. It means a great deal to my research.

I'm glad you got something out of it. For those that don't know, Dan Chiplis had a degree in horticulture and was a student of John Naka and Yuji Yoshimura. He served as assistant curator of the national collection and wrote a number of articles in BCI and ABS Journals.

Scott

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Just finished reading this document.. Thanks Scott!

I've done some investigations into the functions of bald cypress knees. My favorite book on BCs is "Baldcypress: The Tree Unique, The Wood Eternal" by Claire A. Brown and Glen N. Montz. Your article sheds more light on an idea as to why knees develop for some bonsai growers while not for others.

Quick answer:
If you want knees, keep the pot flooded and don't cut on the branches. It'll take you a few years, but be patient. You'll need several flooded trees to get knees.

Long answer:
I'm still working on it. There are several theories as to what conditions lead to knee development (not just flooding, but timing of floods and substrates, and how it all relates to the function of knees (not respiration as too many think)). I bounced my ideas off of a botanist at the university where I work. He seems to think that there is some science to back up my hypothesis. If I were to do a full-blown study where all the factors were considered and sample sizes were of a respectible size, I'd calculated that I would need 750 trees. Shit. I'm a computer systems analyst, not a botanist. I couldn't get the funding I'd need for the simple reason that you don't give big bucks for tree research to a guy with a computer science degree and an MBA. Thus, I'm just going to throw every suspected factor (7 factors, at last count) at a dozen flooded trees and if knees develop, I won't know precisely why, but I'd have a method that others could reproduce.

New Wrinkle!
The article mentioned certain root development which they believed to be pre-knees on just two of the trees in their study. This is exciting. I have two trees growing in 7-inch high restaurant bus pans. I have more bus pans and more trees to enter into my experiments. I'll be looking for these pre-knees and keep track of them as they develop. One of the seven techniques I heard for developing knees involved placing a large tile, or flat stone on top of the soil of the flooded pot. The pre-knee roots may be interacting with the stone and encouraging knee development. So many factors!

Thank you thank you thank you for this article. It means a great deal to my research.

If you look back at some of the repotting pictures, I show some knees and "pre knees" on this tree and in another thread I have on a clump style BC. I am starting to wonder if water has any cause at all on knee formation. Here, around town, there are several business that have BC planted in their parking lots in the little islands of grass between the parking spaces. These trees have never seen flooding and at times struggle for water and are exposed to extreme temperatures from the heat generated by the asphalt. Yet, they make knees, go figure.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

UPDATE:

It was time to remove the wire and also a haircut.

I did not take a before, here is the after:



The wire that I removed


The carnage



The roots have grown like crazy since the repot, They are actually filling the submersion tub with runners and the soil with feeders.

 

[Qitree]

I created an account just so I could look at your pictures. Your tree is beautiful!
I love the lofty, romantic needles, and they are small. BC is perfect for bonsai.

Also, an interesting conversation going on here.
Has anyone considered that knees are a product of overcrowding? Seems logical to me, but perhaps that has been refuted and is common knowledge to previous posters in this thread?

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I created an account just so I could look at your pictures. Your tree is beautiful!
I love the lofty, romantic needles, and they are small. BC is perfect for bonsai.

Also, an interesting conversation going on here.
Has anyone considered that knees are a product of overcrowding? Seems logical to me, but perhaps that has been refuted and is common knowledge to previous posters in this thread?

Thanks for the compliments on my tree.

I don't think anyone knows why they make knees, they just do. Overcrowding theory is interesting, but I have seen many in nature growing with plenty of room make knees. I have a theory as to why they don't grow in pots for people but I am gathering more supporting data before I share.

Thanks again,

John