Progression of One of My Bald Cypress

[markyscott]

I've seen a study that attempted to look at the effects of flooding on BC growth. I referenced it in this thread.

http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/bald-cypress-knees.10897/page-2#post-139101

I'm happy to email a copy to anyone who wishes one. Send me a pm.

Scott

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Perhaps...but in my anecdotal experience there is trade off between submerging the root mass long term in the hopes that your tree will produce knees and with the health and vigor of the tree. There is absolutely no guarantee that a submerged tree will develop knees, and if it does, it is a timeline segmented by decades to get the kind of results shown. If it were easy, you would see many more examples of trees developing knees in containers...and there just aren't that many out there of which I am aware. I am pretty sure I remember John's dad reporting that tree with the really nice knees had been in water for nearly 20 years and that was at least 5-7 years ago that I read that... Do you know John??

One thing I did notice when I was looking into developing knees was that they seem to have a growth spurt in late summer(easy to notice as the old bark splits and new fresh bark is exposed...see John's last photo...which makes me wonder if submerging only for that period of time would be beneficial to knee growth and not detrimental to overall growth?? John...have you ever noted what time of the year your knees grow??

Regardless...I have chosen to opt for healthy vigorous trees and not growing knees. I decided years ago to collect trees with knees and not to worry about trying to grow knees. Now I just need to stop selling all the ones I collect with knees


BTW...John...isn't your father's name John Day?? Maybe I am confused?? if it is, the pics I have seen of his trees are outstanding!!

John

I went to my Dad's website (bnjl.com, for those interested) and the earliest picture that he has is 2002 (17 years old then), not sure how much sooner that he got it. Looking at the pictures, the knees started in 2006. I do know that he has had it in the water the entire time that he has had it.

Now that you metion it, it does seem that the knee grew more at the end of the summer, when the bark began to peel. I just attributed the slow/no-grow to repotting. I repotted this spring and cut most of the root off from which the knee was growing on to get the clump to sit lower in the pot.

My Dad's name is John Lee, same as mine. There is a man named Joe Day in our club, he is fairly well know bonsai circles, at least in our area. I don't know if he is a website.

John

 

[Ceijay]

Does anyone think maybe genetics has more to with it anything else?

Again disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

But I think the trees used by Mullet are genetically dispositioned to grow knees more than other trees of the same species, and the conditions in which Mullet grows them accelerates that. It could be that some trees would never grow knees unless put under the proper stress, but those tree without the genetics to grow knees will never grow them regardless of the conditions. I would also bet that material gathered from wild or older trees would have a higher chance of producing knees.

Anyway just a thought.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Does anyone think maybe genetics has more to with it anything else?

Again disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

But I think the trees used by Mullet are genetically dispositioned to grow knees more than other trees of the same species, and the conditions in which Mullet grows them accelerates that. It could be that some trees would never grow knees unless put under the proper stress, but those tree without the genetics to grow knees will never grow them regardless of the conditions. I would also bet that material gathered from wild or older trees would have a higher chance of producing knees.

Anyway just a thought.

I am not sure about genetics and I am sorry that I mentioned it in a post a while back, I mentioned it in passing when trying to come up for a reason for the knees in a pot. Nobody knows, even papers that are written on the subject are a scientist's best guess. I will say that they just grow knees when they want to. That is all I know.

John

 

[Dav4]

Fwiw, I've seen knees on cypress in MA, GA, SC, NC, FL, AL and LA and always next to water. If it's a genetic trait, it's a fairly widespread one.

 

[rockm]

[Again disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

But I think the trees used by Mullet are genetically dispositioned to grow knees more than other trees of the same species, and the conditions in which Mullet grows them accelerates that. It could be that some trees would never grow knees unless put under the proper stress, but those tree without the genetics to grow knees will never grow them regardless of the conditions. I would also bet that material gathered from wild or older trees would have a higher chance of producing knees.

Anyway just a thought.[/QUOTE]

Knees aren't "genetic traits" any more than eyes are "genetic traits" for animals. They are, from what research has found so far, to be an adaptive capability built into the species that is spurred and honed by the environment the species evolved in.

There are no real differences between BC gathered from the wild and those in nurseries. Many of the BC sold in nurseries have been selected and cloned (air layer, cuttings, etc.) for specific cosmetic characteristics like upright growth, etc. There has been no specialized work, as far as I know, to breed "knee-less" BC.

The growth of knees in entirely dependent on specific environmental triggers, according to research, not on particular trees' genetic makeup.

 

[Ceijay]

Knees aren't "genetic traits" any more than eyes are "genetic traits" for animals. They are, from what research has found so far, to be an adaptive capability built into the species that is spurred and honed by the environment the species evolved in.

There are no real differences between BC gathered from the wild and those in nurseries. Many of the BC sold in nurseries have been selected and cloned (air layer, cuttings, etc.) for specific cosmetic characteristics like upright growth, etc. There has been no specialized work, as far as I know, to breed "knee-less" BC.

The growth of knees in entirely dependent on specific environmental triggers, according to research, not on particular trees' genetic makeup.

It was meant to be more or less a simple uneducated guess not really a full blown theory.

Although you do realize genetic code IS required for animals to grow eyes, yes? Mammals like the star nosed moles have no eyes at all and while some species of deep ocean fish do form eyes; a lot of them are blind. However, there are no conditions at all that will lead to either of these animals gaining sight because the information is not within their genetic code. So I'm not sure I can agree with your previous analogy.

I get where your coming from though.

 

[rockm]

Well, yeah, but referring to eyes as a "genetic trait" stretches that terminology a bit. A bigger picture is that they are a specialized adaptation that most animals have to handle their environments.

 

[Ceijay]

You know hair is genetic too...maybe that's why their BALD cypress.

ba dum tsss. thank you ill be here all week.

 

[sorce]

They get knees by me.

One by a lake.
Few by a pond.

Will a cutting root? When? Size?

I gotta get me one!

Sorce

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Pulled this one out of the tub today too, look at all of the roots.

John

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Update:

Here is the lady without her clothes, we finally got enough cold to make her turn lose of her leaves. Here is what she looked like:



As you can see, she is kinda leggy and could use some wire, so, here she is:





Of course, she looks better in person. I realize that some of the branches are kinda long before the divide. I am hoping that when it comes out in spring it will fill in, it not, I will chop it back some. What do you think?

John

 

[sorce]

That excellent taper is still killing it!(good)

At this point.....it can only get better if out under a "just a" title!

If there is a road to perfect.....
This tree is skipping down it, whistling a happy tune!

Sorce

 

[just.wing.it]

I like it, nice work.

 

[sikadelic]

Looking good!! I always love to follow along with BC threads. Are you repotting this Spring?

I will repot the 2 I have this Spring. It will be the first time since collection and I am excited to see how the roots look.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Was out taking pictures this evening after work and snapped a few of this guy, thought I'd share. The wires will probably come off this week as some are already biting in. After it comes out more, I will chase some of the branches back. Here it is:









The chops are healing nicely, the top one is not easily picked out if you don't know what you are looking for:

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Here is one for size comparison:

 

[fredman]

This is a lovely BC. I like how well the branches are spread around the trunk. Very well done

 

[sorce]

John....

I love the branch structure...not too many or too few....
In my eye...if you build pads on this structure that end, well ramified, about half as long as they are currently....
It will be perfect...

Is that the plan?

This is one of my All time fave bcs!

Sorce

 

[Mellow Mullet]

John....

I love the branch structure...not too many or too few....
In my eye...if you build pads on this structure that end, well ramified, about half as long as they are currently....
It will be perfect...

Is that the plan?

This is one of my All time fave bcs!

Sorce

Thanks, sorce. That is kinda the plan, I hope to get some more ramification this season.