Pricing

[Boulder Bear]

With regard to how much to spend on our pots, has anybody ever heard of a recommended guideline to effectively complement our tree while not over shadowing it? As an example, 10% of the trees estimated value invested in a pot? Therefore, $20,000 tree would realistically reasonably afford a $2000-$3000 pot? Does this seem like a guideline that is unrealistic or unnecessary?
Seems like there are a LOT of VERY nice trees, potted in rather vanilla pots. Like somehow, despite the remarkable craftsmanship of ceramicist over the past 200 years, i think many investors/collectors have difficulty finding adequate “WOW!!”-level pots for their otherwise, “ STUNNINGLY remarkable trees!
I’m not talking dirty about ceramicists.
When comparing the MANY, outstanding trees, offering quite unique qualities, it’s as if there’s an imbalance of way more outstanding trees then there are equally stunning pots to be mated with.

Thoughts?

 

[pandacular]

When people talk about a pot that complements the tree, I don't think they're talking about price...

 

[leatherback]

Consider the pot a frame. The frame of a picture is there to finalize the image. Not to compete with it. The same with the pot.
The best pots are the ones that are not noticed as they compliment the tree so well. Often those "vanilla" pots are highly valuable.

 

[Boulder Bear]

When people talk about a pot that complements the tree, I don't think they're talking about price...

Agreed… especially with beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Yet, seems like the more literally out – standing pots seem to be more expensive.

Not a rule, just an observation. I’ve heard till that there are, in fact pots that can be rented solely for a show/competition which kind of goes along with my original question, which is, why does there seem to be so many more truly remarkable trees than trees-mated with comparable pot?
And is there a price (or other) guideline anyone has come across other than trying to convey a scene, set the stage?

 

[Cajunrider]

With regard to how much to spend on our pots, has anybody ever heard of a recommended guideline to effectively complement our tree while not over shadowing it? As an example, 10% of the trees estimated value invested in a pot? Therefore, $20,000 tree would realistically reasonably afford a $2000-$3000 pot? Does this seem like a guideline that is unrealistic or unnecessary?
Seems like there are a LOT of VERY nice trees, potted in rather vanilla pots. Like somehow, despite the remarkable craftsmanship of ceramicist over the past 200 years, i think many investors/collectors have difficulty finding adequate “WOW!!”-level pots for their otherwise, “ STUNNINGLY remarkable trees!
I’m not talking dirty about ceramicists.
When comparing the MANY, outstanding trees, offering quite unique qualities, it’s as if there’s an imbalance of way more outstanding trees then there are equally stunning pots to be mated with.

Thoughts?

It all depends on what the bonsai artists want to portray with a particular tree. Some want the pot to be in the background and let the tree shine; others want a pot that is similarly eye-catching in a complementary way.

 

[Dav4]

I typed a very long response to this question, then promptly erased it as it was just going too far down various rabbit holes. Suffice it to say that while no unwritten price guideline exists, I do believe you're not too far off when discussing trees at the top of the bonsai pile. As it turns out, I have several pricey trees in my collection... worth significantly less than the 20 grand the OP used but solidly into 4 figures... and the pots those trees are sitting in cost between 10-15% of what the trees cost. Fwiw, I never look at the price of either the tree or the pot when attempting a match but better trees do seem to end up in better pots. Also, pretty much all the high end trees I've seen displayed at regional and national shows have been in very nice pots, and I can't say those pots were vanilla either.

 

[rockm]

With regard to how much to spend on our pots, has anybody ever heard of a recommended guideline to effectively complement our tree while not over shadowing it? As an example, 10% of the trees estimated value invested in a pot? Therefore, $20,000 tree would realistically reasonably afford a $2000-$3000 pot? Does this seem like a guideline that is unrealistic or unnecessary?
Seems like there are a LOT of VERY nice trees, potted in rather vanilla pots. Like somehow, despite the remarkable craftsmanship of ceramicist over the past 200 years, i think many investors/collectors have difficulty finding adequate “WOW!!”-level pots for their otherwise, “ STUNNINGLY remarkable trees!
I’m not talking dirty about ceramicists.
When comparing the MANY, outstanding trees, offering quite unique qualities, it’s as if there’s an imbalance of way more outstanding trees then there are equally stunning pots to be mated with.

Thoughts?

This is kind of silly. There is no real reason to match a tree's value with a pot that's some outrageous percentage of that. That's not how it really works.

It works as in "find the best pot that accents the tree." That can be a $100 pot or a $4000 pot--if you want spend it. Realistically, a pot worth that much is not really going to be used. It's more likely to be kept on a shelf as an exhibition of its own. Even in Japan, top tier, extremely valuable pots ARE NOT USED until it's showtime for an advanced tree--think Kokofu exhibition. There are suppliers that rent pots out for those exhibitions. Trees are TEMPORARILY placed in them for the months leading up to and including up to a big show. The trees are taken out after the show and put into less valuable everyday pots (Which get dings, cracks etc. from use).

Top tier pots are as expensive as you can imagine. I once held a JApanese-made pot reportedly worth $100,000 at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. It was in the Museum's storeroom and they were NOT going to use it. It was donated, along with some Japanese trees from what I understand.

So bottom line, invest in top tier pots for themselves, not to match up with a tree. Collecting pots is as addictive as collecting trees.

 

[pandacular]

One also wonders if the value (i'm not sure I love the idea of discussing "price", though it is perhaps the best substitute for the hand-wavy "value") of a tree could impact the value of the pot it's in. Surely would to some!

I think a better question to ask is, when buying a tree in a pot, how do you weight the purchase price towards the tree or the pot? I once found a mediocre tree in a lovely pot and seriously considered buying it more for the pot than for the tree!

 

[rockm]

The bottom line is that yes, better pots cost more than a pot that's imported in mass quantities from China. Handmade costs more than a mold-made pot, is a better value in the long run. Handmade pots from "name" potters can cost a lot, and for the most part are worth the price and worth seeking out.

Also there aren't many $4,000 pots in use. The high end imported Japanese pots sold by knowledgeable folks like Matt Ouwinga can top $10,000, but most of those are not used and you'd be surprised at how small they are...Bonsai Mirai has many western pots that are over a grand. If you know what you're doing, you can source the same from potter for a lot less.

Also FWIW, you pay for a pot NOT to stand out. The best ones that are actually used, are studies in skilled subtlety. Very skilled potters know how to walk that fine line between functionality and artistry. They understand that pots are meant to complement, not shout.

 

[Gabler]

One also wonders if the value (i'm not sure I love the idea of discussing "price", though it is perhaps the best substitute for the hand-wavy "value") of a tree could impact the value of the pot it's in. Surely would to some!

I think a better question to ask is, when buying a tree in a pot, how do you weight the purchase price towards the tree or the pot? I once found a mediocre tree in a lovely pot and seriously considered buying it more for the pot than for the tree!

Price is to value what temperature is to heat.

 

[BrianBay9]

Consider also the trees displayed on stone slabs or other found objects. Tree value in the thousands, "pot" free or nearly so, but the combination works.

 

[Colorado]

Personally I would agree that yes, I like to use higher quality pots on my better trees. I don’t think any monetary formula is necessary, no need to make is more complicated than it needs to be.

I would disagree with your premise that there aren’t many good pots out there. Seems like there are plenty of options if you want to spend a bunch of money on a pot

 

[flor1]

Mika pot for everything once it’s getting ready to be shown then and only then will I think about a pot.
To many pots are purchased for trees that will be never used.

 

[BrianBay9]

To many pots are purchased for trees that will be never used.

This is true, but dang, everybody likes a nice pot.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I could write for hours on this, and come back to basically seconding @Dav4 and @rockm so I won’t.

I’ll just add that sometimes it costs a bit more for just the perfect pot for a tree when getting ready to show. The Shimpaku I exhibited in the 2016 Natty was in a Gyouzan that took months to find, and was about 25% the cost of the tree itself. in 2021, I showed a JBP I paid $350 for in 2008, and the pot was an antique Chinese pot that was 6x the cost of the tree…but in both cases the match was spot on for the look I wanted.

I’ve never regretted buying a good pot, especially a display pot, so long as the value to me exceeds price by just $1.00. The accent pot next to the Shimpaku is a Tofukuji that was more expensive than the Shimpaku pot. Subtle (vanilla?)…unless you know what you’re looking at.

Also, if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, get Kobayashi’s bonsai book. He has some simply amazing pots/pairings in that book:

 

[Relic37]

I'm just looking forward to reaching the point where I'm not killing trees, and shopping for a display pot is more than an exercise in the absurd. I had guessed it might be hard to over-water trees when the daily temps are exceeding 105 every day, but I was wrong. Goodbye little Mugo, it was a short year-and-a-half...

 

[Carol 83]

This is true, but dang, everybody likes a nice pot.

I have way better pots than I have trees.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have way better pots than I have trees.

Me too.

 

[Gabler]

I have way better pots than I have trees.

Yeah, but do you use them?

I personally find it frustrating when I'm looking for just one pot for one specific tree, and a whale shows up at the club auction to start a bidding war on every single pot on display, especially when he comments, "I have no idea what I'm going to put in this."

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'm just looking forward to reaching the point where I'm not killing trees, and shopping for a display pot is more than an exercise in the absurd. I had guessed it might be hard to over-water trees when the daily temps are exceeding 105 every day, but I was wrong. Goodbye little Mugo, it was a short year-and-a-half...

A mugo in Dallas? That was doomed no matter how good you are.