Possible to have a forest where trees are technically the same age? (Trident Maples)

[Adair M]

I'm not "taking someone on".

There's the problem with this whole communication.

You still believe that which is not true.

Sorce

Believe what???

You into long distance mind reading now?

Look, I post here because I have 50 years of bonsai experience, I’ve gone the gamut from complete novice to where I show at the highest levels in the country, and win Best of Show. I started this journey long before the Internet, even before DVDs, and honestly before VHS videos were invented. Information of any kind was scarce. There were very few people who had any clue of how to do bonsai. I’ve had to search to find ANY kind of info, and THEN I had to determine whether it had any value, or even if the info was correct’

So, when I see misinformation or conjecture posted here as fact, that upsets me!

And then, when YOU are supposed to be a moderator, and YOU are dispensing the BS, it’s even more egregious.

And then you go and violate the Terms of Service of this forum calling me names... as an Admin!

Unbelievable! Simply unbelievable!

 

[Dav4]

Don't demean me because you can't read under your Boon Rock with closed mind.

You were a dick to call your shitty forest better than forsoothes.
It's mathematically near identical with the same thoughtless beginning.

You on your high horse proclaiming that's a good forest.

You should be ashamed.

You probly are cuz you finally realized you paid too much.

Sorce

Dude!!

 

[Maloghurst]

Hi everyone.

This might be kind of a silly question but I know a lot of you are experienced with Trident Maples and probably have some insight on the subject.

I currently have a batch of trident seeds in the fridge and my main goal for some of the them will be to eventually create a respectable (hopefully) forest planting.

I know that with a forest group you want trees of different heights, thicknesses, and typically ages.

My question is this: Is it possible, through techniques like staggering sow dates, selective pruning, fertilizing, using different pots, and growing some trees on boards/tiles to achieve enough variation in heights and thicknesses down the road? Has anyone done this before, or do you typically start with different aged trees in your forest/group plantings?

Thanks.

You wouldn’t have guessed in a million years how this thread would’ve progressed!
This is a forest at the pacific bonsai museum.
It states on the placard it was created with a batch of seedlings that we’re grown in varying size containers to make different sizes trees over 20 years I think.

 

[Adair M]

You wouldn’t have guessed in a million years how this thread would’ve progressed!
This is a forest at the pacific bonsai museum.
It states on the placard it was created with a batch of seedlings that we’re grown in varying size containers to make different sizes trees over 20 years I think. View attachment 279746

They were grown for 20 years before being put together in a forest? That’s a long time to wait!

 

[cmeg1]

Morton shows a beautiful Acer forest of all same age.Looks nice.Campestre

 

[Carol 83]

Morton shows a beautiful Acer forest of all same age.Looks nice.Campestre

Thanks for posting this. Nice to see that bforests don't have to be massive plantings.

 

[cmeg1]

 

[sorce]

Believe what???

You into long distance mind reading now?

That I'm taking someone on.

I know I'm not.

I'm talking about Forests and you keep bringing up people and feelings and telling me to Think...

Don't tell me to think when you haven't read.

There you go again spewing about how you have done this and that.....

That doesn't change the things I was talking about.

Bringing up the fact that Bill made the forest, or performed the actions, doesn't somehow change the results of the action.
You are just bringing someone else into this and that is childish.

We needn't go the further you take it.

The truth is in the talk of forests.

Get over yourself.



Sorce

 

[Adair M]

That I'm taking someone on.

I know I'm not.

I'm talking about Forests and you keep bringing up people and feelings and telling me to Think...

Don't tell me to think when you haven't read.

There you go again spewing about how you have done this and that.....

That doesn't change the things I was talking about.

Bringing up the fact that Bill made the forest, or performed the actions, doesn't somehow change the results of the action.
You are just bringing someone else into this and that is childish.

We needn't go the further you take it.

The truth is in the talk of forests.

Get over yourself.



Sorce

I have read, and re-read this whole thread several times. And nothing you have said makes any sense. Period. I have backed my statements with pictures of my own forests, and diagrams drawn by John Naka supporting my points.

You have responded by calling me names. You, an Admin on this site, using vulgar language in violation of the Terms of Service is totally uncalled for.

I honestly feel there’s no communicating with you.

 

[penumbra]

I am so tired of both of you and you are two of the people I most respected on this site.

 

[Adair M]

I am so tired of both of you and you are two of the people I most respected on this site.

I can understand that.

 

[JudyB]

That I'm taking someone on.

I know I'm not.

I'm talking about Forests and you keep bringing up people and feelings and telling me to Think...

Don't tell me to think when you haven't read.

There you go again spewing about how you have done this and that.....

That doesn't change the things I was talking about.

Bringing up the fact that Bill made the forest, or performed the actions, doesn't somehow change the results of the action.
You are just bringing someone else into this and that is childish.

We needn't go the further you take it.

The truth is in the talk of forests.

Get over yourself.



Sorce

I think instead of upping the ante at this point it would behoove you to back it down and apologize. Yes apologize. You are supposed to be a force for positive on this forum and you are being anything but. The forum comes first not your feelings or anger. No one needs to spout names not you not me not anyone. Get it together man.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Aside from the name-calling... I understand both POV's.

Is it an aesthetic decision to work with one group of seedlings, instead of working with trees of various ages? Or is it something else? If you enjoy propagating trees, perhaps you enjoy the idea that all the trees are siblings. Or maybe you are just lazy and that's all you had on hand Regardless, if you stopped to think about it, you are both arguing the same point - but are disagreeing on the best way to achieve it.

I happen to be freaking out right now preparing for a cross-country move, and am more concerned about which trees will make the move, and how many will survive. Any time anyone sets out to "prove" something in bonsai, you are setting up battle lines because it is an invitation for someone to prove you wrong. Aesthetically, I agree with @sorce, if for no other reason than it is EASIER to work with trees of different ages and achieve the results. However I agree with @Adair that just because it is harder, does not mean that it is impossible to achieve the same thing with seedlings if you aggressively grow some while selectively restraining others - and there are many ways to go about this.

How's that for a non-position?

 

[Adair M]

Aside from the name-calling... I understand both POV's.

Is it an aesthetic decision to work with one group of seedlings, instead of working with trees of various ages? Or is it something else? If you enjoy propagating trees, perhaps you enjoy the idea that all the trees are siblings. Or maybe you are just lazy and that's all you had on hand Regardless, if you stopped to think about it, you are both arguing the same point - but are disagreeing on the best way to achieve it.

I happen to be freaking out right now preparing for a cross-country move, and am more concerned about which trees will make the move, and how many will survive. Any time anyone sets out to "prove" something in bonsai, you are setting up battle lines because it is an invitation for someone to prove you wrong. Aesthetically, I agree with @sorce, if for no other reason than it is EASIER to work with trees of different ages and achieve the results. However I agree with @Adair that just because it is harder, does not mean that it is impossible to achieve the same thing with seedlings if you aggressively grow some while selectively restraining others - and there are many ways to go about this.

How's that for a non-position?

Where are you moving to?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Where are you moving to?

Hopefully... North Carolina. You will recognize my house because it will be encircled by the billions of Japanese maples I have been unable to keep in SoCal the last 24 years

 

[Dav4]

Hopefully... North Carolina. You will recognize my house because it will be encircled by the billions of Japanese maples I have been unable to keep in SoCal the last 24 years

Welcome to the neighborhood... kinda!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

So I believe the answer is Absolutely Yes to Yamabudoudanshi, from both the Chinese and Japanese perspective.
Anyone whi believes otherwise, chime on in. Here’s my references and rationale.

The very first reference I could find explaining ”Grouping”. Is in Man Lung Artistic Pot Plants“, author Wu Yee-sun, published by Wing Lung Bank Ltd. Art Publications pp 67-69 (numbered from the back!)

In it Wu Yee-sun explains the Basic principles of grouping and the key concern over elaborate designs and the about artificiality and lack of harmony with such designs that do not follow the dictates of Nature.

Wu ye-sun writes that “the basic principle is THE IMITATION OF NATURE” then goes on to explain the elements of the grouping:
1. Layout. 2. Container 3. Suitable stand 4. Plant grouping.

In the section on plant grouping he writes about 1. Raw Material, 2. Forms and 3. Geographic differentiation of groupings.
In the Raw Material sections he tells of 6 types used in China over time.
They are:
a. Dwarfed plants of the same kind
b. Dwarfed plants of different kinds
C. Dwarfed plants of the same age
d. Dwarfed plants of Different ages
e. Dwarfed plants of similar form

Finally and to the exact point, Wu ye-sun explains how to make basic layout with 3 & 7 trees and choices for groupings. In this he explains that there should 3 basic trees the basic the grouping:
1. A largest and tallest tree to be used as the main tree,
2. A complementary tree
3. A side tree
Other trees (4 in this case) should be placed on the flanks not in the middle, nor on a parallel line with the other trees to produce the impression of depth and perspective of the forest. (Note the grouping is the “forest”)

Getting back to the present, I was at a demo of Bill V’s in Puget Sound last fall 2019 about ”Forest Bonsai” (his term on the handout. He used field grown tridents of similar age and sorted them out by size and trunk (similarly to Wu ye-sun). However as this was a demo he cut some trees down shorter as needed to achieve the design view and proper perspective.

He gave four references to back up his work.
The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and Landscapes, by Yooshmura and Harford 1957
Modern Bonsai; Basic Principles for Neo Classical Design, International Bonsai1992 No2 Vol 14 No 2
International Bonsai 1993/No 1 Issue on Forest Bonsai Vol 15 No 1
Autumn 1981 issue on Group Planting style Vol 3 No3 International Bonsai Arboretum

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Robley6]

The forum comes first not your feelings or anger.

How is Judy not an admin on this site?

 

[HallieReusch]

This is a disgusting response and in clear violation of the forum rules. And coming from someone who is a moderator on this site? Makes it even worse.

You are out of control and in need of a time out. @Bonsai Nut , you need to get this person under control. Your forum is going downhill in a hurry.

Was this actually posted? I see it in the quoted response, but not the actual post.

 

[coh]

Was this actually posted? I see it in the quoted response, but not the actual post.

Yes. The original post was edited by either the site owner (Bonsai Nut) or sorce to remove the offending section but it persists in the subsequent posts where it was quoted.

Interesting "solution". Not my site, though.