Ponderosa pine yamadori

[aml1014]

I'd love to see the foliage bent back and over the base of the tree. Leaving it as a semi cascade will pull your eye's way from the base, which has all that awesome movement and bark, and there isn't enough foliage close enough to the base to make the cascade option reasonable imo. Raffia, copper wire and patience are your friends here. Good luck!

I'd also like to see it bent back over the trunk but I'm unsure on how to do a bend like that without causing harm to A. The bark and B. The tree itself. Maybe I'll pull that guy wire off and think about it a bit more and figure out how to bend it the opposite way a bit.

Nice yamadori! IMO, I liked the original trunk angle and movement when the tree was still in the ground.

That's actually exactly where I liked it too!

Aaron

 

[Potawatomi13]

I'd love to see the foliage bent back and over the base of the tree. Leaving it as a semi cascade will pull your eye's way from the base, which has all that awesome movement and bark, and there isn't enough foliage close enough to the base to make the cascade option reasonable imo. Raffia, copper wire and patience are your friends here. Good luck!

Looks like you would force traditional Bonsai rules on Literati Yamadori tree. Most ANY bending destroys old cracked bark regardless of raffia. Some back bending "could" be done farther out but from way out there likely would look contrived and unnatural. Literati Cascades can be quite attractive and regardless of style Literati or any tree has desireable characteristic of aged bark and interesting trunk. One could say Literati have two focal points: Trunk and Foliage as without either tree is incomplete but still much distance between the two. So it would be as a cascade. Moving foliage backwards would deemphasize trunk and I see as mistake changing what drew one to tree in first place.

 

[Dav4]

g

Looks like you would force traditional Bonsai rules on Literati Yamadori tree. Most ANY bending destroys old cracked bark regardless of raffia. Some back bending "could" be done farther out but from way out there likely would look contrived and unnatural. Literati Cascades can be quite attractive and regardless of style Literati or any tree has desireable characteristic of aged bark and interesting trunk. One could say Literati have two focal points: Trunk and Foliage as without either tree is incomplete but still much distance between the two. So it would be as a cascade. Moving foliage backwards would deemphasize trunk and I see as mistake changing what drew one to tree in first place.

Regardless of the source of your stock- collected, grown from seed, or purchased in a nursery- one should strive to make the most of the material. My personal opinion is that this tree would be rather boring as a cascade with a mostly straight trunk with all the foliage at the end. Done properly, good, sharp bends in the right places will not badly damage the bark and will vastly improve the tree in the long run. I wouldn't hesitate to crank some serious bends into this trunk...bringing this tree to a workshop with a guy like Ryan Neil who knows how to prepare the trunk and place the bends would be worth the cost of admission plus a long drive, particularly since Aaron will likely be working with more stock like this in the future and will need these skills again (hint, hint). In the end, it's up for Aaron to decide where to take this tree. The worst thing he can do is rush to style a tree like this without considering all the options. Again, patience is his friend.

 

[aml1014]

g
Regardless of the source of your stock- collected, grown from seed, or purchased in a nursery- one should strive to make the most of the material. My personal opinion is that this tree would be rather boring as a cascade with a mostly straight trunk with all the foliage at the end. Done properly, good, sharp bends in the right places will not badly damage the bark and will vastly improve the tree in the long run. I wouldn't hesitate to crank some serious bends into this trunk...bringing this tree to a workshop with a guy like Ryan Neil who knows how to prepare the trunk and place the bends would be worth the cost of admission plus a long drive, particularly since Aaron will likely be working with more stock like this in the future and will need these skills again (hint, hint). In the end, it's up for Aaron to decide where to take this tree. The worst thing he can do is rush to style a tree like this without considering all the options. Again, patience is his friend.

I appreciate you looking out for the tree and I.
I did remove the guy wire basically immediately on Monday after giving you and @thumblessprimate1 s posts some good thought. I am happy I applied the wire and gave the tree that slight direction towards a cascade because that made me realize that's not where this one is going.
I've actually been looking at the Ryan Neil intensive courses, but as most know, it's booked up until 2018, and that is quite a bit of money for a 22 year old with bills lol.
Maybe someday!
I will say one thing though, NOBODY touches my trees but me. I don't even care if Kimura showed up at my house ready to work, I'd be happy to ask his opinion on things. I might be weird, but I like anything that happens to my trees training wise to be done by me, so I know I've developed the tree completely by myself.

I really do fear bending that portion back over the opposite direction. The bark on the straight area of trunk is very old and scaly and comes off at the slightest touch so I still would like to guy wire this one.
My idea is to attach a piece of rebar to the far left portion of the container and run a guy wire to about the center of the trunk and pull it about 90° or maybe a little less. Then I'll attach another guy wire to pull the upper portion of trunk back over to the right.
This should get the trunk to where I really want, and it'll excentuate curves that are already present in the trunkline.

Again thanks @Dav4 , sometimes I just need a little kick in the ass to make me do what I need too.lol

Aaron

 

[Dav4]

Fwiw, there are other artists out there that have done this kind of work frequently and successfully. You just have to do some research and decide who would be best to work with. Also, most of these pros want you to do the work...they'll give you advice and explain the technique, but you'll be doing most of the work yourself.

 

[aml1014]

Fwiw, there are other artists out there that have done this kind of work frequently and successfully. You just have to do some research and decide who would be best to work with. Also, most of these pros want you to do the work...they'll give you advice and explain the technique, but you'll be doing most of the work yourself.

A few of my buddy's and I have been talking about trying to bring Todd Schlafer from first branch Bonsai in Denver down to do a workshop, definitely not as expensive as the Ryan Neil intensives. He specializes in conifers so I think that would be a good idea to get his help.

Aaron

 

[Dav4]

A few of my buddy's and I have been talking about trying to bring Todd Schlafer from first branch Bonsai in Denver down to do a workshop, definitely not as expensive as the Ryan Neil intensives. He specializes in conifers so I think that would be a good idea to get his help.

Aaron

Exactly!! I'd reach out to him for sure. Sharing costs with other hobbyists is a great way to reduce costs and a day long workshop with someone experienced w/ collecting, styling, and maintaining collected trees is worth it if that's your personal focus.

 

[aml1014]

Getting ready to make the trunk bend, we were able to convince Todd Schlafer to come down for a workshop next month and I plan to have him help me style this one, but I can take care of the bend myself.
I'll be taking it to the club workshop this Saturday to get an extra set of hands from my buddy Adam to make the bend. It's actually very flexible, but the help doesn't hurt.

Aaron

 

[aml1014]

Done!
Aaron

 

[petegreg]

Foo, good job, Aaron. That's gonna be the tree.

 

[aml1014]

Foo, good job, Aaron. That's gonna be the tree.

I agree, I honestly think I may go home and give it it's styling and try to buy another one before Todd comes down.

Aaron

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice tree. I was going to say that Ponderosa stay flexible for quite a long time, there was no reason to hurry. Sometimes a branch has a shari in it, a section of dead wood from a branch dieing back, these segments don't bend well, you need to be cautious where you put the bends. On the other hand, even old wood can be bent fairly sharply, if wrapped. I am assuming the angle of the photo that it is looking at the tree from the "front'. I would definitely bring this one to the workshop when Todd comes down, I think the bend can be tweaked, I'd like to see the apex come forward a little, it looks flat, two dimensional, in the photo, but it is only a photo, show it to Todd, see what he thinks. You want the bend to move in all 3 dimensions.

About needle length.
I have seen a ponderosa with needles a little less than 4 inches long. I was a tree owned (still owned) by a Milwaukee member, she bought an old but small ponderosa some 20 years ago. Her branches all have 4 and 5 levels of ramification. Most Ponderosa when collected only have 2 or 3 levels of ramification. Her tree almost looks like a JBP until you look at the bark and the trunk. She does not withhold water, she only fertilizes after needles are hardened off. She does do bud selection, removing primary buds to force the secondary to grow, but she is very judicious, bud removal only in the strong sections and not every year. She does claim to follow Larry Jackal's book closely. I did not get a photo, but will do so the next time she brings it to a meeting. Ramification will bring needle size down, but ramification with Ponderosa is not quick, she said it was over 15 years before she had significant reduction.

The longest in my care Ponderosa has been with me less than 7 years, my needles are still over 6 inches in length, so I can't say first hand exactly what it takes to get reduction to 4 inches. Mine was a burlap special from Andy Smith, and it took 3 years just to get it established and growing. I did not get bushy fox tails of new growth until the 4th summer.

 

[aml1014]

Nice tree. I was going to say that Ponderosa stay flexible for quite a long time, there was no reason to hurry. Sometimes a branch has a shari in it, a section of dead wood from a branch dieing back, these segments don't bend well, you need to be cautious where you put the bends. On the other hand, even old wood can be bent fairly sharply, if wrapped. I am assuming the angle of the photo that it is looking at the tree from the "front'. I would definitely bring this one to the workshop when Todd comes down, I think the bend can be tweaked, I'd like to see the apex come forward a little, it looks flat, two dimensional, in the photo, but it is only a photo, show it to Todd, see what he thinks. You want the bend to move in all 3 dimensions.

About needle length.
I have seen a ponderosa with needles a little less than 4 inches long. I was a tree owned (still owned) by a Milwaukee member, she bought an old but small ponderosa some 20 years ago. Her branches all have 4 and 5 levels of ramification. Most Ponderosa when collected only have 2 or 3 levels of ramification. Her tree almost looks like a JBP until you look at the bark and the trunk. She does not withhold water, she only fertilizes after needles are hardened off. She does do bud selection, removing primary buds to force the secondary to grow, but she is very judicious, bud removal only in the strong sections and not every year. She does claim to follow Larry Jackal's book closely. I did not get a photo, but will do so the next time she brings it to a meeting. Ramification will bring needle size down, but ramification with Ponderosa is not quick, she said it was over 15 years before she had significant reduction.

The longest in my care Ponderosa has been with me less than 7 years, my needles are still over 6 inches in length, so I can't say first hand exactly what it takes to get reduction to 4 inches. Mine was a burlap special from Andy Smith, and it took 3 years just to get it established and growing. I did not get bushy fox tails of new growth until the 4th summer.

That picture was more to show the bend, here's a picture of the official front.
And here a couple pictures from the left and right side of the tree.

The picture from yesterday definitely looks "flat". Those should show the movement a bit better. I do need to work on getting the apex just a bit more toward the front of the tree (which it is already slightly). Also I wired the tree last night, but did not style. I only spaced the branches out so that they can recieved sun.

Aaron

 

[nover18]

That picture was more to show the bend, here's a picture of the official front.View attachment 132665
And here a couple pictures from the left and right side of the tree.View attachment 132667
View attachment 132669
The picture from yesterday definitely looks "flat". Those should show the movement a bit better. I do need to work on getting the apex just a bit more toward the front of the tree (which it is already slightly). Also I wired the tree last night, but did not style. I only spaced the branches out so that they can recieved sun.

Aaron

I'm impressed with how much movement you were able to get into that portion of the trunk. Good work. Interested to see where this goes in the future..keep us posted. Do these needles reduce well?

 

[aml1014]

I'm impressed with how much movement you were able to get into that portion of the trunk. Good work. Interested to see where this goes in the future..keep us posted. Do these needles reduce well?

I'm comparison to how long they are now, yes, they'll reduce a ton. The needles that were on this tree in nature were only about 3" long from lack of water for most of the year. I could get a picture afterward work as there are still many of the old needles left.

Aaron

 

[Potawatomi13]

I will say one thing though, NOBODY touches my trees but me. I don't even care if Kimura showed up at my house ready to work, I'd be happy to ask his opinion on things. I might be weird, but I like anything that happens to my trees training wise to be done by me, so I know I've developed the tree completely by myself.

Feel exactly the same and believe most experienced teachers would agree with you. After all said and done is YOUR tree to style.

 

[justBonsai]

Nice bend! Really liking your pondys.

 

[LanceMac10]

Gotta' say, that's a pretty damn good job swingin' that thing around!! Really well done!!

Needles, though....ack!! They look like it'll take some time to get them to reduce. I wish you luck!

Tree is MUCH better!

 

[aml1014]

I'm impressed with how much movement you were able to get into that portion of the trunk. Good work. Interested to see where this goes in the future..keep us posted. Do these needles reduce well?

Here's a picture I took this morning of the needles it had in nature vs the new growth after collection.
We could easily say that this tree was surviving in nature, just surviving. Now the tree has full size needles because it recieved excess amounts of water and fertilizer after collection. The key for needles reduction is mainly in the ramification process, more branches smaller needles. Also you don't fertilizes ponderosa pines until their new growth has hardened off in late summer, then you feed heavily to stimulate heavy bud production in the autumn and to store the nutrients for the spring growth. Yep, you only fertilize maybe 3 months out of the year. It's a long process, but it's a big tree so 4" needles wouldn't look bad at all. Small ponderosa are hard to pull off.

Aaron

 

[wireme]

That picture was more to show the bend, here's a picture of the official front.View attachment 132665
And here a couple pictures from the left and right side of the tree.View attachment 132667
View attachment 132669
The picture from yesterday definitely looks "flat". Those should show the movement a bit better. I do need to work on getting the apex just a bit more toward the front of the tree (which it is already slightly). Also I wired the tree last night, but did not style. I only spaced the branches out so that they can recieved sun.

Aaron

Nice first moves.