Policy on new members selling things

[penumbra]

I think it depends what you or the community want to do with this site.

This is a very welled established site and I think its intentions have long been made clear.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I like the idea of sellers having stamps labeling them "UNVERIFIED SELLER" or "VERIFIED SELLER". They would have to earn the "VERIFIED SELLER" stamp.

The problem with that is it seems like someone (B-Nut) will have to do a lot of babysitting in order to slap the label on, verify with others that they received their goods, and slap the new label on them.

A 30 day wait limit might chase off some bad actors, but not all. Maybe add a minimum post count too.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I feel like the forum is a platform for communication and not a platform for selling, and the users should be weary themselves if they want to engage in that kind of behavior.

I can make a fake account, post a couple things and still do a bait and switch. I believe we as consumers should have some common sense and take that responsibility.
In my country, bank account numbers and names should match on the backend, if they don't then we get a warning when trying to transfer money.

No tracking information? No sale.
Too good to be true? No sale.
No account + name match? No sale.
Sketchy user? No sale.

It's quite simple for a user to adhere to these rules.

I want to point out that I don't think we should waste the moderators time and money to fix our shit. It's easy for anyone to set up an ebay account and sell through that, same for etsy or (less desirable) facebook and other marketplaces. Those systems have regulations and the structure in place to protect both the buyer and the seller to some extent.

I feel like the forum has all the right things in place to make us communicate. Everything else is not what it's meant for, and not their responsibility in my opinion.

 

[Unagi]

This is a very welled established site and I think its intentions have long been made clear.

That can easily be true, but I am new on the site and don't know the intentions.

I am also not familiar with the number of active users, but when I read the threads, it feels like everyone knows everyone, like a small community (not in a bad way).

This, and the type of the question "lately there are new users who want to sell things, what should we do?" made me feel that the site is more like a small community (again, in a good way), rather than a reddit /r/bonsai with 350K members.

I like BN style so much, I am not even on /r/bonsai even though I am Reddit, but I feel like we mix anti-abuse and being part of a community. At a bigger site, it is normal to be able to sell as a new comer without writing random posts because they are prepared to abuse in other ways.

 

[DonielDoom]

I don't think we should waste the moderators time and money

This is what dominated my first thoughts. That said, there may be a simple solution to apply a function of logic: if a new post is made in the selling section of the forum by a user with less than enough account history and/or enough posts, then that thread gets an auto-response, or icon/flag/etc, with essentially a canned message reminding us to be aware of transactions online.

I feel just about any effort would be a generous thing for the site moderation to do. I don't think it's the responsibility of the site moderation to take action/effort in this category, but I also don't love the ol' "it's on you, bud. Hope you did your research". There's a tough line of what feels like hand-holding on one side and a cold shoulder on the other.

Thanks for posing this question and enabling dialogue. Regardless of outcome this is a refreshing perspective.

 

[Gabler]

I've always found it odd that people are allowed to buy and sell things here at all. It's not an online store. It's a forum for spreading information. If you want to buy and sell, go to Ebay, Etsy, etc.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

then that thread gets an auto-response, or icon/flag/etc, with essentially a canned message reminding us to be aware of transactions online.

I get what you're saying and I agree to some extent, however.. People who just got scammed are not rational thinkers. They will be angry, they will deny their own involvement, they will ignore their own lack of awareness. There's a consumer TV show in my country that's basically a full hour of old people doing just that..
"It was not marked as a sketchy account. They told me who to trust, and they were wrong!"

That's why I think it's safer to just take the hands off and let the people themselves be the judge. Basic internet literacy is something people can teach themselves, or learn it from making costly mistakes.
Phishing, bait and switch scams, other scams, they're everywhere and I believe the lesser responsibility the forum takes, the less it can get caught in the crossfire.

It's mostly about small money, less than a thousand dollars. But what if.. What if someone is stupid enough to transfer a couple thousand, or even million dollars to someone, gets scammed, and gets a lawyer involved. Over here, the law is the law.. In other countries, interpretation and judgment is in the hands of some random people who might decide based on emotions.
Honestly, if this forum wasn't American centered, it would've been different. That is an observation, not a critique - I've been dealing a lot with US law firms lately (about intellectual property, thankfully) and they're darn thorough. I don't know enough about financial crimes, federal, state, or local laws to make any hard statements, but my gut feeling says to stay away from responsibilities at all costs.

 

[rockm]

The last thing this site should be is Reddit. There are 10,000 morons who know everything about bonsai there. It’s dimwitted. I have always liked the approach this site has. We have a group of more experienced people who mostly know each other. That may intimidate new folks which isn’t reallly warranted but can serve as a deterrent to scams. If you see a long time members asking pointed questions to someone who may have posted sales pitches-you can draw some solid conclusions.

As for official post counts etc. that’s just a numbers game. He’ll I’ve got a special name because I basically hung around for so long. Bottom line if someone has less than 40 or 50 posts and has been here a month and is trying to sell stuff I’d be very skeptical

 

[River's Edge]

If a change is made it should not create additional work for the moderators or even implied additional responsibility/liability.
Currently the system allows for individuals to inform others that they have something for sale. After that the individuals are responsible.
I think people should just accept responsibility for their own actions. Old school perhaps.

 

[Michael P]

Again using the example of APC (Aquatic Plant Central) much of the "moderation" is done by ordinary members. If they see something suspicious, they use the report feature to notify a moderator. (That might be me, who then dispatches the offender with a swift and fatal blow, LOL.) APC is a smaller and less active forum than Bonsai Nut. Our largest problem lately is scammers using chat bots to make superficially plausible posts which contain links to who-knows-what.

My experience here is that there are very few questionable posts and these are quickly debunked by other members.

 

[Gabler]

I get what you're saying and I agree to some extent, however.. People who just got scammed are not rational thinkers. They will be angry, they will deny their own involvement, they will ignore their own lack of awareness. There's a consumer TV show in my country that's basically a full hour of old people doing just that..
"It was not marked as a sketchy account. They told me who to trust, and they were wrong!"

That's why I think it's safer to just take the hands off and let the people themselves be the judge. Basic internet literacy is something people can teach themselves, or learn it from making costly mistakes.
Phishing, bait and switch scams, other scams, they're everywhere and I believe the lesser responsibility the forum takes, the less it can get caught in the crossfire.

It's mostly about small money, less than a thousand dollars. But what if.. What if someone is stupid enough to transfer a couple thousand, or even million dollars to someone, gets scammed, and gets a lawyer involved. Over here, the law is the law.. In other countries, interpretation and judgment is in the hands of some random people who might decide based on emotions.
Honestly, if this forum wasn't American centered, it would've been different. That is an observation, not a critique - I've been dealing a lot with US law firms lately (about intellectual property, thankfully) and they're darn thorough. I don't know enough about financial crimes, federal, state, or local laws to make any hard statements, but my gut feeling says to stay away from responsibilities at all costs.

Thinking about the law is the correct approach, but you have it backward. Employing some sort of safeguard would demonstrate that the site is being careful. Thinking about being careful and then deciding not to would be evidence of negligence.

Fortunately, it doesn't matter either way. There is no duty of care. If I get robbed at McDonalds, the restaurant isn't responsible. That was an independent action by a third party. If I get scammed by a user of this website, the website is not responsible. It's an independent cause.

(This is not legal advice.)

 

[JudyB]

I've always found it odd that people are allowed to buy and sell things here at all. It's not an online store. It's a forum for spreading information. If you want to buy and sell, go to Ebay, Etsy, etc.

I sell things here so I know that for the most part the tree will be in knowledgeable hands going forward as opposed to some random idiot on FB or EBay. And if there are care questions down the road they can contact me or the general forum for help.

 

[Flowerhouse]

new member shows up, engages in an inflammatory thread, and racks up a very high post count quickly.

.. or even just a bunch of quick "nice tree" or "nice pot" comments.
Waiting period would be a good idea.
I'm glad people have the option of selling things here. I like seeing posts from people who have made pots I enjoy.

 

[Wulfskaar]

After reading through these comments, it seems the best option is to use common sense.

Established sellers on here should retain the ability to show off their wares. They have been proven trustworthy.

People who sell or trade much less frequently should also be allowed to advertise their wares as well. I might want to sell off a couple trees at some point without having to create a store on some other site. This is where common sense comes in. If the seller/trader is new, has little post history, etc, then just don't trust them. If you do, don't spend more than you can lose without hurting yourself.

No selling: Hurts good people here, mainly potters and growers like @cmeg1.
Wait period: Some scammers are patient and have no problem waiting.
Minimum posts: Some scammers can get their post count up very easily and quickly.
Free-for-all: Buyers must practice common sense. Losses are a risk the buyer takes.

Maybe a combination of a waiting period + minimum posts, then common sense would weed out a few bad actors.

 

[Thetradingtree]

Id say 44 days on the forum and 25 posts including this one.

 

[Zac]

I'm one of the idiots that went against my gut feeling about a new member post selling stuff and made purchase and never received product. I used PayPal goods and services to protect myself and was refunded my money (it was only $50) I don't blame the forum or anyone but the seller and myself. I made post about it to warn others and suggested the poster was removed from forum. I like and appreciate the forum for all the great information. I have also purchased several pots and plants,starters and cuttings from members with out any problem. I also feel it's the buyers responsibility not the forums. But any safety measures would be appreciated.

 

[penumbra]

I sell things here so I know that for the most part the tree will be in knowledgeable hands going forward as opposed to some random idiot on FB or EBay. And if there are care questions down the road they can contact me or the general forum for help.

^^^YES^^^ I felt that way when I sold some of my pottery here as well. I like making that personal connection.

 

[Carol 83]

I think it's a bit sad that we need to have this conversation but I also totally understand. I will say, I have bought lots of stuff from members here and never had anything but excellent results. Everything was priced very well, shipped well and usually exceeded expectations.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I think a 30 day limit and and a minimum post count would be a good idea.

Ditto

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I think a 30 day limit and and a minimum post count would be a good idea.

Agreed.

I like seeing members offering things here first to “keep it in the family”, but don’t appreciate new people showing up only to take advantage of the community by trying to sell without otherwise participating.