PIT-EKA Satsuki Seed

That will work. But I think you will save time and maybe get slightly better growth if right now you hook out 200 seeds, put them in a 200 unit plug tray, and then have some plastic to cover it and keep humidity a bit higher.

That said, I just did similar to your plan yesterday with a 144 cell tray. A lot of thin plants with small leaves (but they are still indoors ofc). But now they have space to grow.
 
That will work. But I think you will save time and maybe get slightly better growth if right now you hook out 200 seeds, put them in a 200 unit plug tray, and then have some plastic to cover it and keep humidity a bit higher.

That said, I just did similar to your plan yesterday with a 144 cell tray. A lot of thin plants with small leaves (but they are still indoors ofc). But now they have space to grow.
I wish I had to space and time to do it now.

How big/old were they when you did the transplant into the cell tray?
 
My experience so far is that I echo @Glaucus about thinning, even in the two sets of root phase.

There are a couple reasons for this.

Culling the weakest allows Increased growth for the rest of the seedlings due to more space, less competition for light. Maybe even 2 - 3 times.

Second eventually these need to be up potted. My first was selecting the strongest and upping these into 5 for each 2 1/4 liner. I found it’s much easier to do this and avoid damage to other seedlings.

Finally it’s much easier to keep an eye on individual health of the remaining lot.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
My experience so far is that I echo @Glaucus about thinning, even in the two sets of root phase.

There are a couple reasons for this.

Culling the weakest allows Increased growth for the rest of the seedlings due to more space, less competition for light. Maybe even 2 - 3 times.

Second eventually these need to be up potted. My first was selecting the strongest and upping these into 5 for each 2 1/4 liner. I found it’s much easier to do this and avoid damage to other seedlings.

Finally it’s much easier to keep an eye on individual health of the remaining lot.

Cheers
DSD sends
I will be doing my process a bit different. Once I can get them outside space will no longer be an issue as I'll dedicate a table just for them.

Most likely these crosses will need to get to the F2 or F3 generation to get the desired results I'm looking for. I'm just hoping they flower by their third year.
 
I wish I had to space and time to do it now.

How big/old were they when you did the transplant into the cell tray?

Of course, if you don't have the space, you don't have the space.

I can take pictures of this tray next week. Away from my plants during the work week.
From my picture archive, this is a tray where the sowing was very dense:
20220102_004031.jpg

A tray like this becomes kind of stagnant. They all try to grow taller and taller.

(It may actually be the tray I transplanted seedlings out of.)

Your tray will end up like this one, or many even denser.
Notice that for some reason the seedlings on the edges of the tray grow faster. It is very hard to judge genetics this early.
So once your tray looks like this, it is not so obvious to pick out the best growers. Any in terms of genetics, I see very little variation among very young seedlings (but clear variation from seedlings of different crosses).

Now this is not a fair comparison because the following seedlings were sown earlier (and also from a different cross), but if given space they grow like this:
20220117_164205.jpg

Next weekend I can show you the 144 cell plug tray. But also show you densely sowed trays vs early transplants from that same tray, and how transplanting has given them the advantage.

You can always transplant. But it will be a more finicky work to transplant from a densely sowed tray like picture 1. You can still pull seedlings out. But they will lose some roots. And they had sub-optimal growth for a while.

Also, culling is even more work and harder to do. Because you need to pull out the most tiny seedlings, and a few decently sized ones for every good seedling. And even then you don't gain so much. So culling as a strategy is probably the least effective. The smaller ones you just abandon at some point when you are repotting the larger ones. You don't repot them and instead discard them.

No worries because this will work in the end. But it might be more optimal next time to sow 1/4th of the seeds early, so they have plenty of space. And then sow the rest very near the moment they can be moved outside. Then germinate them indoors for 2 weeks, and move them outside in the 200 cell trays.

They may also completely fill out a 200 cell volume once they have 6 or so true leaves. The seedlings on the second picture, I will move those to a 40 or 66 cell tray. Something like 4 by 4 cm would be great for seedlings. Some of my largest seedlings overwintered in 7x7cm pots. So with a 200 cell, expect to transplant again at some point during summer. Then they can overwinter in that tray.
If you have 3000 seedlings, you save a lot of time by only translating 2 times vs 4 times, for example.

I think that next year I will probably try to sow very dense in sphagnum once more. Then transplant to the 144 at germination (the stage you are at). And then transplant them into 5x5cm trays once I move them outdooors. And they then overwinter their first winter in that second tray.

The issue was that I don't have humidity domes that can cover the plug tray. But I now have a tent with a humidifier, so I think this will work now.
And sowing 1 seed into 1 cell of a plug tray is also not practical. Hence the transplant once the root or first leaf is visible.
 
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I wish I had to space and time to do it now.

How big/old were they when you did the transplant into the cell tray?

This is how they look a week after the transplant:
1644081452711.png

1644081471004.png

You can see they are elongated with small leaves. And, they don't look super happy. Normally, I would bag a tray like this for 2 to 3 days, then transition to open air.
Most of these got a little damaged/stressed from going to 100% humidity inside a dome to losing some of their roots and into a no-dome tray with 70-90% humidity and air movement plus direct exposure to the grow light (no plastic in between).
I am sure they can be transplanted with zero damage when taken more care to harden them off more slowly.

These were sown at some point in November. Probably early November. I ought to write sowing dates on the labels.
The transplant was done last week.
The original tray now looks like this:
1644084926552.png

I will be able to update you on the difference between the original and transplants by the time you are at a similar stage.


As for the effect of transplanting, these 'Toshi London' x 'Hekisui' were sown at the exact same time inside the smaller tray:
1644084673057.png

Then at germination + few days, some were moved to the tray on the right. You can see the size difference.
 
This is how they look a week after the transplant:
View attachment 419104

View attachment 419105

You can see they are elongated with small leaves. And, they don't look super happy. Normally, I would bag a tray like this for 2 to 3 days, then transition to open air.
Most of these got a little damaged/stressed from going to 100% humidity inside a dome to losing some of their roots and into a no-dome tray with 70-90% humidity and air movement plus direct exposure to the grow light (no plastic in between).
I am sure they can be transplanted with zero damage when taken more care to harden them off more slowly.

These were sown at some point in November. Probably early November. I ought to write sowing dates on the labels.
The transplant was done last week.
The original tray now looks like this:
View attachment 419116

I will be able to update you on the difference between the original and transplants by the time you are at a similar stage.


As for the effect of transplanting, these 'Toshi London' x 'Hekisui' were sown at the exact same time inside the smaller tray:
View attachment 419112

Then at germination + few days, some were moved to the tray on the right. You can see the size difference.
That's a huge size difference between the two trays. The seedlings here have been growing pretty quick being on the heat mat. Once I see their first true leaf I will start giving them a diluted solution of organic liquid fertilizer......I'm hoping I don't stink up the basement.
 
It will take some time now before you actually see the first sign of the first true leaves (and the hairs they have). But the cotyledon will grow in size somewhat.

I will be interested in the leaf shapes of the first true leaves. It will take a month and a half to get a first sense, though.
But I have seen that seedlings from the same cross are very similar to basically identical in leaf shapes (with a few exceptions that may be explained by growing conditions).
But different crosses have clear differences, even if they share one of the parents with each other.

Satsuki x satsuki crosses usually have the pointy R.indicum style leaves (unless there is a round-leaf maruba satsuki involved).
And satsuki x non-satsuki (kurume/Belgian Indica/poukhanense/Glenn Dale/Encore) usually have round leaves, inherited from the non-satsuki.
The rounded leaves seem dominant.

However, I have not yet seen a cross with clearly dimorphic leaf shapes.
I would predict pointed leaves for Shiryu no homare x Chojuho (though maybe you will see the Rinpu curled leaves, I have no experience with that).
While Pleasant White x Chojuho, Chojuho x Pleasant White and Renee Michelle x Chojuho should all have rounded leaves

So maybe Shiryu no homare x Kakuo will be the dimorphic one? Where some will have round R.kiusianum style leaves, like Kakuo itself and the parent Miyama Mangetsu. And some others will be pointy like Nikko/Kozan and Shiryu no Homare (ignoring rinpu cur, this leaf should be a typical. R.indicum alsol).
 
Looking good.

You mentioned fertilizer in one of the previous posts? Did you already start using it?
I only fertilize after 2 or 3 months. But I was planning to do a test. I was sure I had 3 tray with the same seeds where I wanted to fertilize one early. And one never.
But somehow that looks like a false memory now because I don't seem to have those 3 trays.

II also do use 1/3rd or 1/2nd part potting soil that contains fertilizer. I think that this, and any new fertilizer from new potting soil when transplanting will be sufficient to prevent deficiencies.
 
You guys are amazing! @Pitoon I'll be very interested in the batch process it appears you are intending to use. Its all I can do to keep up with the cuttings taken in the past two years right now.

Sounds like the potting soil with fertilizer is doing its job for @Glaucus 's youngest seedlings to me.

I didn't use fertilizer at all on the younger seedlings grown from his seeds. After transplanting at 3 months been using dilute fertilizer, Miracid actually, on the seedlings produced. The fertilizer is about 1/4 of the smallest spoon side provided by Miracid in a Liter of rainwater and a good squirt of H2O2. Used most days over the week for about 3 months. Switched to all weeks a month ago.

This amount is the same to what's used on the cuttings kept inside at this point.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
Looking good.

You mentioned fertilizer in one of the previous posts? Did you already start using it?
I only fertilize after 2 or 3 months. But I was planning to do a test. I was sure I had 3 tray with the same seeds where I wanted to fertilize one early. And one never.
But somehow that looks like a false memory now because I don't seem to have those 3 trays.

II also do use 1/3rd or 1/2nd part potting soil that contains fertilizer. I think that this, and any new fertilizer from new potting soil when transplanting will be sufficient to prevent deficiencies.
I didn't start with the fertilizer yet. I am waiting till the first true leaf is fully grown and the next leaf starts to grow. Then I will use an extremely diluted solution of liquid fertilizer.

I will be using Schultz Plant Food Plus. I've had good results with this in other plants. It's a concentrated liquid fertilizer that's mixed into water via drops. When I move them outside I'll switch up the fertilizer to an organic base.....I don't want to stink up the basement.

20220220_143349.jpg
 
You guys are amazing! @Pitoon I'll be very interested in the batch process it appears you are intending to use. Its all I can do to keep up with the cuttings taken in the past two years right now.

Sounds like the potting soil with fertilizer is doing its job for @Glaucus 's youngest seedlings to me.

I didn't use fertilizer at all on the younger seedlings grown from his seeds. After transplanting at 3 months been using dilute fertilizer, Miracid actually, on the seedlings produced. The fertilizer is about 1/4 of the smallest spoon side provided by Miracid in a Liter of rainwater and a good squirt of H2O2. Used most days over the week for about 3 months. Switched to all weeks a month ago.

This amount is the same to what's used on the cuttings kept inside at this point.

Cheers
DSD sends
I will document my process in this thread.

I just hope I don't loose these seedlings like I lost the previous ones. My goal is to get at least a tray worth of plants to flower so I can create crosses from those.
 
Good to hear!

I lost a lot of mine inadvertently last summer due to a med procedure that kept me off track, just enough to miss watering one week. There is no reason, imho, that you can't bring these off intact. After transplanting I had to keep the seedlings inside as I sprouted mine in early summer.

The seedlings I have growing out are the best of the bunch left.... all were from around the edges of the sprouting tray btw.

The loss didn't actually matter much as I only had room for about 25 of the best seedlings from each of 4 crosses. Too many trays of cuttings this year.... 7 growing out in the garage and another 7 first year cuttings dormant in the greenhouses. Hopefully this next year I get to dump some and be more selective next year now that I'll be an bit more on top of each cultivar's characteristics for future bonsai.

I have some Huang 2-5-71 (George Drake now) I got in from Ronnie Palmer at Azalea Hills a year and a half ago that are showing some promise. Sadly I couldn't get many cuttings last year as the new plants from there took awhile more to acclimate and push.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
Good to hear!

I lost a lot of mine inadvertently last summer due to a med procedure that kept me off track, just enough to miss watering one week. There is no reason, imho, that you can't bring these off intact. After transplanting I had to keep the seedlings inside as I sprouted mine in early summer.

The seedlings I have growing out are the best of the bunch left.... all were from around the edges of the sprouting tray btw.

The loss didn't actually matter much as I only had room for about 25 of the best seedlings from each of 4 crosses. Too many trays of cuttings this year.... 7 growing out in the garage and another 7 first year cuttings dormant in the greenhouses. Hopefully this next year I get to dump some and be more selective next year now that I'll be an bit more on top of each cultivar's characteristics for future bonsai.

I have some Huang 2-5-71 (George Drake now) I got in from Ronnie Palmer at Azalea Hills a year and a half ago that are showing some promise. Sadly I couldn't get many cuttings last year as the new plants from there took awhile more to acclimate and push.

Cheers
DSD sends
I lost last year seedlings by not watering them for 2 days. They dried up to the point of no return....learned from my mistake.

The heat mat seems to be helping a lot. But the trays dry daily and I have to check sometimes twice a day to see if they are not to dry. Looking forward to transplanting them into individual cells, but not really looking forward to it either if you know what I mean.
 
Yep, I sure do!

Actually I always put the plants this size 4-5 to a 2 1/4” pot until they grow out enough to warrant a 1 per 2 1/2 pot. Doesn’t seem to be a big issue until these get 2 1/2- 3” tall.

Best
DSD sends
 
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