Pinus Pinea for a beginner

[Wulfskaar]

I am a complete noob as you will probably realise! lol
I have recently just got a pinus pinea ( silver crest ) In nursery form (homebase)
12 cm roughly and will be looking to ultimately train into a bonsai!

My main noob questions are..

can i still repot 4th apr?

i will grow it out as a potted tree until i get desired trunk width?

How much (if any) of the roots can trim? or do i just leave roots and repot?

I plan to grow for at least 3-4 yrs before starting the true bonsai training!

Absolutely any advice is welcome. I am here to learn! view me as a open blank bonsai book!!

Thank you everyone who contributes sound and sensible advice!

Hi!

I'm only in my 2nd year, so I'm a noob too. The only things I can offer are what I've experienced so far. Still not quite sure if my advice is sound or sensible!

I repotted in March of last year and the tree did fine. I'm sure April is fine too. I did a fairly hard bare root prune, cutting off 2/3 or more of the roots. I then planted in a grow box in Bonsai Jack conifer blend.

During late spring and into summer, the tree seemed like it was struggling, but since then it has begun to recover. The candles elongated, but needles only came out of parts of them. I think growth was hampered by the harsh root pruning and repotting. This year, the candles are extending further and they seem a little more green than last year. One interesting note regarding candle pruning... I cut one of them half off and it ended up dividing into 4 new patches of growth! Not sure if that's easily repeatable, but that is what happened.

I would say to go ahead and repot, but don't chop the roots like they are going into a bonsai pot. Instead, leave a bit more do that in stages as the years go on.

I also plan to let mine grow. So far, the growth has been very, very slow, so it's going to take a long time (several years I'm guessing) for it to really thicken up. On my tree, it is very apically dominant, meaning it grows stronger up top. I'll have to trim some of the top growth in order to get it growing more down low.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I plan to cut the top half off and keep some of the lower branches, but only the top half are actually getting candles and growing. I would hate to kill it by removing the only part that is currently growing.

If I do cut the top off, will it add significant strength to the lower branches? The red line is where I plan to chop to get the more natural umbrella shape of a mature stone pine. It could possibly be higher but pretty much all the newer growth is above the line. I added a super-rough virt to visualize what I am thinking.



Also posted here: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/i...a-from-nursery-stock.22187/page-3#post-955759

 

[Wulfskaar]

Candles on top are putting out needles. I will need to remove all those upper branches, leaving only the leader, in order to get some vigor in those lower branches that will eventually be main branches. The eventual (distant future) chop is planned at the location where the guy wire holds the trunk in place.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Good plan. You might think about chopping off at least half now, perhaps leaving at the very most half of the existing top hamper or just a couple 2 -3 sacrifice branches. The tree is in good shape, stable and appears vigorous…..

The reason why it’s pushing candles up top is the upper foliage has been pulling most of the available nutrients away from the lower branches that you feel are the future tree. It seems it’s a good time to start moving forward. Not sure waiting is gonna change the situation. Leave some branches with candles so you know the sap line is still going to be intact.

I’d feed it up near the max consistent with your growing conditions.

Just a thought.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Wulfskaar]

Good plan. You might think about chopping off at least half now, perhaps leaving at the very most half of the existing top hamper or just a couple 2 -3 sacrifice branches. The tree is in good shape, stable and appears vigorous…..

The reason why it’s pushing candles up top is the upper foliage has been pulling most of the available nutrients away from the lower branches that you feel are the future tree. It seems it’s a good time to start moving forward. Not sure waiting is gonna change the situation. Leave some branches with candles so you know the sap line is still going to be intact.

I’d feed it up near the max consistent with your growing conditions.

Just a thought.

cheers
DSD sends

Thanks DSD! I'm terrified to do that and I don't know the exact right time to do it. There is so little info about P. pinea out there. You think now is a good time?

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Yes chop it now, by summer it probably will flush out again in the lower branches

 

[Wulfskaar]

Well, I couldn't bring my self to remove the branches yet. This is the first year where it actually has healthy growth, so I decided to let it be for now.

What is the absolute best time of year to remove the upper main trunk branches so I can try to force vigor into the lower branches?

 

[ivano]

HI @Wulfskaar and all,

I present myself in one row: I am a passionate Pinus Pinea lover that does not have the space to grow it outside the balcony, so would be fine to buy a bonsai so that will remember the Italian tree as emigrant in the Netherlands every day.

Are days I am trying to buy a Pinea bonsai, but it looks as the foliage is not optimal to make a bonsai. (I saw also the passionate professor in this thread said that!),
that crown is just beautiful and the black, red, white pine look too much oriental to me, as I do not care at all to feel as in Kyoto sipping a tea in a blissful state,
but want to be outside my balcony as in Naples drinking my espresso, moving my pinch hand against the neighbors.

Please upgrade with a picture if you like can about your progression.

 

[Wulfskaar]

HI @Wulfskaar and all,

I present myself in one row: I am a passionate Pinus Pinea lover that does not have the space to grow it outside the balcony, so would be fine to buy a bonsai so that will remember the Italian tree as emigrant in the Netherlands every day.

Are days I am trying to buy a Pinea bonsai, but it looks as the foliage is not optimal to make a bonsai. (I saw also the passionate professor in this thread said that!),
that crown is just beautiful and the black, red, white pine look too much oriental to me, as I do not care at all to feel as in Kyoto sipping a tea in a blissful state,
but want to be outside my balcony as in Naples drinking my espresso, moving my pinch hand against the neighbors.

Please upgrade with a picture if you like can about your progression.

It pretty much looks the same right now, except that the light green needles have darkened a bit.

I'm still having anxiety on cutting the branches of this tree because I have not been able to see any Pinus pinea that have survived drastic pruning like that.

Anyone know the IDEAL time of year to reduce branches on top in order to push vigor into the lower branches?

 

[Crazy Diamond]

I just cut the top of the juvenile "candles" they sprout back without problem but the older the branch more difficult is

 

[Wulfskaar]

Thanks @Arnold .

That reminded me of something: In summer 2021, I cut a candle in half before it pushed any needles. 4 buds came out of the cut. In case you ever need branching around where a candle is, try that out.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I chickened out last year and didn't prune anything. I am still a bit nervous about it after reading this:
https://www.nature-and-garden.com/gardening/stone-pine.html

Specifically, this part:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutting the crown of a stone pine

This question comes back often: can the crown top of the stone pine be cut off?

The clear answer is, no. If a stone pine loses its head, it will die.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this mean the ENTIRE top with all needles or just the main leader??? I just want to avoid killing it.

Also, does anyone know the best time of year to do this?

 

[leus]

I chickened out last year and didn't prune anything. I am still a bit nervous about it after reading this:
https://www.nature-and-garden.com/gardening/stone-pine.html

Specifically, this part:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutting the crown of a stone pine

This question comes back often: can the crown top of the stone pine be cut off?

The clear answer is, no. If a stone pine loses its head, it will die.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this mean the ENTIRE top with all needles or just the main leader??? I just want to avoid killing it.

Also, does anyone know the best time of year to do this?

That doesn’t sound right.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

thats not true at all, for small trees you can prune them like any other pine but the tricky thing is prune without sprouting a lot of juvenile growth

 

[AnacortesSteve]

That doesn’t sound right.

I have never had any issues, mine are all about 3 yr old at max, I have about 100.

 

[leus]

I have never had any issues, mine are all about 3 yr old at max, I have about 100.

Yeah, that's why I thought that "cutting top of pine might kill it" assertion didn't sound right, I think we've all seen "beheaded" pines in the wild (lightningt, wind storms, etc.)

 

[Wulfskaar]

By this time last year, the needles were basically fully grown out. This year, they have been stunted by a massive scale infection. I'm in the process of trying to remove them. Next year, I'll definitely be dousing this guy in a lot of whatever kills scale before they become hard to remove.

Compare this to July 2022: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pinus-pinea-for-a-beginner.47215/post-978853

 

[Japonicus]

Buy one around Christmas and have at it.

Also, does anyone know the best time of year to do thithis?

For JBP, mid Winter according to Bonsai Today book on pines I have. Because the tree will feel the effects less when it's dormant. I'm going out on a limb and say I would, for any pine that I had, I would remove the apex during dormancy if ever.

Ryan Neil says he reduces needles on JBP down to the weakest branch at any time of year. Meaning, when he's done the tree is balanced. So, you can always take a more cautious approach, and cut needles off each year, leaving 50% .
Maybe top and bottom needles.
Then reduce more the following year. I doubt the tree is going to die if you remove 50% of the needles in the top half of the tree. Then I have a JBP Brocade that sheds branches every time I touch it.

And why wait till next year to deal with a scale invasion? You want to keep it strong as possible. Feed heavily the year prior to a big reduction.

One note on strength going into a reduction. Not a good time to have to repot after reduction if you elect to remove (part of) the apex by heavy pruning. So think proactively and plan around expected repot years.
Also, if the tree needs repotting, it is not good to skip repotting in favour of other work. The better percolation will benefit other work that can be done. Remove the apex if it needed repotting and it will be more detrimental.
Fresh legs on the defense

 

[Japonicus]

I would in your case remove the top left weaker shoot (same height as the leader) mid dormancy.
I would reduce the needles on the leader by 50% this Fall.
Come Spring, remove 75% of each candle in the remaining areas you want removed and allow the rest of the candles to grow and feed heavily.
That should get you into 2025 safely without regards to the feet.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Thank you for the input, @Japonicus ! I really appreciate it!

When you speak of reducing needles to 50%, for example, do you mean cutting all needles half off or removing half of all the needles?