Phasing work on my Shimpaku Juniper

[MaciekA]

I hadn't heard this before. Do you have a place I can read more about this? Upon searching this in Google, the only place I see this mentioned is kn here by you, so I'm curious to find if this is informed by experience or something else.

I am considering doing an earlier prune as soon as... well, whenever I get the chance and then saving wiring for the workshop.

Junipers don't store all of their energy in the foliage. They just store more of it in their foliage than many other conifers -- these are very plump and substantially massive leaves for a conifer after all. There's still plenty of starch in the limbs and roots like anything else. I don't have an academic paper for you to read, but it's one of the most oft-repeated quasi-facts in the Bonsai Mirai universe, and other professionals do not disagree. It also would explain why juniper cuttings take root so easily.

 

[pandacular]

Thanks, @MaciekA. I certainly wasn't looking for anything as rigorous as a paper (though you did come through with one on another thread!), and wasn't trying to cast doubt, just was curious in hearing more. I find it interesting that Ryan Neil seems to suggest pruning in late summer on junipers given this, but I suppose that could be before the storage of starches begins?

Per usual with a thread like this, I seem to have come away with more questions than answers.

 

[Paradox]

One of the best and sometimes worst (can get overwhelming) things about bonsai is no matter how long you do it, there is always more to learn

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks, @MaciekA. I certainly wasn't looking for anything as rigorous as a paper (though you did come through with one on another thread!), and wasn't trying to cast doubt, just was curious in hearing more. I find it interesting that Ryan Neil seems to suggest pruning in late summer on junipers given this, but I suppose that could be before the storage of starches begins?

Per usual with a thread like this, I seem to have come away with more questions than answers.

So from the beginning. I sense in your questions the basic understanding of the importance of staging your work for best results. I would follow this approach.
1. Plan to repot the juniper this coming spring into the Anderson flat. That is a large container and the process may take some time, even successive repots to complete the process. ( this will be depending on the root condition and how well the root ball was maintained during development. My initial reaction would be to do this with your teacher not in a regular meeting workshop. Primarily due to the time factor and the focus of getting the planting angle done properly. I am sure your teacher will inform you that the root work will need to be carefully planned due to the nature of juniper roots. It is always better to prune the roots with care and be sure not to overdue the amount removed in one session or repot. ( also better to retain the foliage and branching to help with recovery. Therefore the structural pruning and wiring may wait until full recovery after the repot. It is not unusual for larger junipers to sulk and recover slowly after a major repot such as this will be. You should be prepared for the following.
- a slower recovery and perhaps waiting on the structural pruning and wiring for more than one growing season.
- if the repot is major and a lot of root removal occurs the possibility of losing foliage or branching. ( this is another reason why styling is best left till later)

So short response, yes take your time, carefully plan for the best initial front and planting angle. Complete the repot first, allow for full recovery before proceeding to the next stage.

 

[pandacular]

I spent some time just now looking at the tree and trying to figure out what I felt was lacking in it. My main takeaway is that it has a lot of long, straight extending growth. Of course there are two good ways to fix pieces being too long: with scissors or with wire. I think with a wire alone, I can get quite a lot of the length reduction I need, as well as start to establish a style. I'm beginning to think that the prune is the largest part that adds risk to my plan, and with the least payoff. With the advice of those in this thread, I'm thinking I'll do the wire in the fall, repot in the spring, and shelve the prune for the amorphous future.

My initial reaction would be to do this with your teacher not in a regular meeting workshop. Primarily due to the time factor and the focus of getting the planting angle done properly.

Yes, I had no intention of doing this repot at a club workshop, was thinking of doing one or both of the prune and wire at the workshop. Now, just leaning towards the wire (though there's no way I get it all done in an hour!). It's a great idea to get a private session with my teacher to guide me in the repot. She runs a basic lesson series, which I've now completed, that includes a repotting class, but I believe she has advanced workshops in the works.

 

[pandacular]

I sense in your questions the basic understanding of the importance of staging your work for best results.

I've noticed both on this site and elsewhere that it's common for beginners to overwork trees and set them back. Add to that my minor obsession with understanding the reasoning of timing of different pieces of work, and a dash of a novice's impatience, and it makes for quite a storm. I've already overworked one tree, and I'm trying to learn from that mistake.

 

[River's Edge]

I've noticed both on this site and elsewhere that it's common for beginners to overwork trees and set them back. Add to that my minor obsession with understanding the reasoning of timing of different pieces of work, and a dash of a novice's impatience, and it makes for quite a storm. I've already overworked one tree, and I'm trying to learn from that mistake.

You have a higher quality pre bonsai to begin with. It deserves a patient well planned and executed approach. If you are an anxious beginner than my advice would be to practice on cheaper material with less potential.
If you are prepared to make the focus one of getting the best results possible out of this material, than take your time. There is no shortcut to excellence.
The reality is that wiring also weakens a tree, particularly if done by a less experienced person. Most certainly if done in such a way as to reduce straight thicker sections.
I understand the desire to do something and feel like you have started. In my opinion the best thing you can do is be patient and plan.
Having said that, it is your tree so best of luck with this material.

 

[dansai]

I'm curious as to why you want to plant into an Anderson flat?

Also have you pulled the plant out and looked at the roots?

My experience with junipers, (albeit more so with what you folks in the US call procumbens nana) is they are far more tough than we seem to give them credit for. I tend to go lighter on my J. chinensis because of this, however my J procumbens I am much harder. I have done a few where I have hard pruned, wired and done a repot with drastic root reduction in one go in Autumn and they are all fine. Some were older reasonably valuable trees.

In my yard, in my climate, I would not hesitate to do a harder prune now of the branches you know are overly long and do wiring late summer, early Autumn. As long as there is plenty of growing tips left intact, i.e. don't pinch or trim the rest of the tree, it will keep on growing. The tree should still be growing so will still have enough good growth for repot in spring. It is usually best to avoid wiring Junipers in spring as the cambium detaches easily from the sap wood and you can easily kill branches.

It appears the tree is reasonably young and full of vigour so, as I said, I would not hesitate. Only you can make the decision on whether you feel comfortable.

 

[pandacular]

I'm curious as to why you want to plant into an Anderson flat?

My goal is to reduce the roots and promote some flaring. Essentially, a step down in vertical pot size to prepare it for a bonsai container in it's next repot.

In my yard, in my climate, I would not hesitate to do a harder prune now of the branches you know are overly long

When you say now, do you mean in terms of the season the tree is in (mid summer) or in terms of your season (winter, i think)?

It appears the tree is reasonably young and full of vigour so, as I said, I would not hesitate

I've been planning to call Robert Cho and ask about the age and prior care of this tree. I think his opinion on this would be valuable. it's certainly a younger tree, but I'm not sure how old it is. I suppose 5 and 10 years are likely somewhat similar in terms of response to growth.

 

[pandacular]

If you are prepared to make the focus one of getting the best results possible out of this material, than take your time. There is no shortcut to excellence.

Apologies Frank, I think I misread your post, and didn't realize that you were advising holding off on the wiring as well.

By the way, is your nursery still available to visit? I have had trouble finding info on the web, but it's on my list of places to visit in the PNW bonsai world.

 

[dansai]

Now, as in your time, mid summer. I have a very mild climate, no frost, rarely down below 5c (40f). Most of my trees grow all year round. Talking to someone local to you about what growth to expect if you cut now would be helpful.

My understanding is that Anderson flats are quite large and shallow. I generally would be looking to reduce depth and, if possible, reduce circumference. Again local advice on what to expect in your climate may dictate this for you.

For a couple of examples, here is a 20+ year old that came out of a 12" pot. The picture showed what it came out of and what it went into. I left the core intact and backfilled with Akadam/Pumice/Lava after a hard cut back and wiring in Autumn. There has been some small growth since.

And another that had less hard cut back, wiring and repot into A/P/L with a finer akadama on top. Also in Autumn. And also some growth since.


I wouldn't recommend you do this, as you might not have the warmth in your area for recovery. Again local advice should be sort.

 

[pandacular]

Ah so your concern with the Anderson flat is the width/circumference of it. Frankly, I'll likely go with Anderson flats for my next few repots as that's what's mostly available for the parameters I want most--shallow, mesh bottom--and its what my teacher and many of the locals use with success. I'm still in my rookie season, so deferring to locals is my default MO.

Another option would be building a wooden box for it, which seems popular on here, but mostly for yamadori. That would allow me to get the two things I mention above with more control over the breadth of the tray. I've also seen folks cut flats to make them narrower on here.

My final idea for this tree would be to plant it into a rather wide pot or on a slab, but that's many years down the line. Because this tree was made by a penjing artist and I find the dramatic twists more in line with that tradition, that is more my focus at this time; I tend to see penjijg planted wider than bonsai, often to accommodate the rest of the scene.

 

[River's Edge]

Apologies Frank, I think I misread your post, and didn't realize that you were advising holding off on the wiring as well.

By the way, is your nursery still available to visit? I have had trouble finding info on the web, but it's on my list of places to visit in the PNW bonsai world.

Yes, I have taken down my website. My nursery is available to visitors by appointment and I still hold Open House Events once or twice per year. I found the website too much work to maintain and felt a constant pressure to keep it fresh or respond to inquiries. You are welcome to visit. This afternoon I spent some time with a fellow Bonsai nut from Calgary who wished to see my trees and ask some questions.

 

[River's Edge]

Ah so your concern with the Anderson flat is the width/circumference of it. Frankly, I'll likely go with Anderson flats for my next few repots as that's what's mostly available for the parameters I want most--shallow, mesh bottom--and its what my teacher and many of the locals use with success. I'm still in my rookie season, so deferring to locals is my default MO.

Another option would be building a wooden box for it, which seems popular on here, but mostly for yamadori. That would allow me to get the two things I mention above with more control over the breadth of the tray. I've also seen folks cut flats to make them narrower on here.

My final idea for this tree would be to plant it into a rather wide pot or on a slab, but that's many years down the line. Because this tree was made by a penjing artist and I find the dramatic twists more in line with that tradition, that is more my focus at this time; I tend to see penjijg planted wider than bonsai, often to accommodate the rest of the scene.

My initial thought for this tree is a dramatic multi line. cascade similar to the work of Jim Gremel. So I would approach the repot and container from a different point of view. retaining more depth and also width initially until the right root ball formation could be created for the best planting angle and display of nebari. Slower approach designed to create the cascade potential out of the initial trunk movement. One of your pictures from the top showed this potential in combination with the initial trunk movement.
Jim Gremel did some incredible cascade styling. He was a long time student of my sensei Boon. Also he was very well known in the PNW for his copper wire. Just a bit of history in case you are not familiar with the name.

 

[pandacular]

I'll make sure to send you a message when I'm planning a trip to Vancouver Island.

 

[pandacular]

I can see the multi-line cascade! Perhaps I'll play with that idea. My first order of business when it comes to repotting season is to examine the surface roots. I have no idea what the base flare looks like currently, but my main goals for the repot are to begin working the nebari and prep for a more permanent container. A flat makes sense to me for this, but obviously a cascade changes that.

Maybe the only thing that is static in my plans is that I'll take this tree to the next club meeting Perhaps just to get some design opinions.

 

[River's Edge]

I can see the multi-line cascade! Perhaps I'll play with that idea.

Maybe the only thing that is static in my plans is that I'll take this tree to the next club meeting Perhaps just to get some design opinions.

There are some very well trained people in your neck of the woods, that is a great idea.

 

[PowerTap]

I spoke with my teacher about this, and she recommended doing the prune and wire at the same time. My local bonsai club next's meeting, in late September, is a bring your tree workshop, so this work might be a good candidate for that.

See you there! Now I have to start thinking about what to bring.

 

[pandacular]

See you there! Now I have to start thinking about what to bring.

It'll be my first one! I'm very much looking forward to it. If you see me and my crazy juniper, say hello.

 

[pandacular]

Jim Gremel did some incredible cascade styling.

just from a quick search on here, I found this tree. The trunk line with it's crazy twists and turns does really remind me of this little tree I have. Thanks for the inspiration and the history. I think I'll go put this tree on a few blocks to see if I can pull the cascade vision out of it, this could be a really great design.