PH lvl 7.5 on my water? is that passable or hard?

[BoostedBonsai]

Water hardness does impact pH. Minerals in the water will buffer the available acid, raising the pH. That said, 7.5 isn't bad. Total dissolved solids (TDS) is how you measure water hardness, and is another important component if you're trying to optimize things. If your water is too hard and the pH is too high, you'll likely end up with chlorosis. Google is your friend .

I run an RO system to fill up large stock tanks with water, and then add muriatic acid to get the pH where I want it. My chlorosis problems have vanished and I generally get greener growth on everything. But again, I'm trying to optimize my water (and for an azalea that really doesn't like living in my climate). Vinegar is a fine solution too (I know others that use it and it works fine).

okay thats good to know tomorrow i will test my TDS and i will post on here, yeah ive had 3 azeales and they all have died on me i thought i overwatered them but possibly was my water
yeah ive heard about irrigating with water and a lil bit of vinegar

 

[BoostedBonsai]

In dilute amounts like kitchen vinegar, acetic acid should do no harm. In biotech, it's considered to be one of the 'safest' acids for biological use. Just don't shower the soil with it, mainly because the pH drop and (re)dissolving of salts are going to be an issue.

ahh that is good to know

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So many mistakes in this thread... your high school chemistry teachers are rolling their eyes atm.

(1) Yes hardness does impact pH. Hardness is a measure of the presence of mineral ions in water (typically calcium and to a lesser extent magnesium). Mineral ions will buffer changes in pH - keeping the water more alkaline (higher in pH). Because rain absorbs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, it is naturally acidic (5.6 pH or so). Areas that receive a lot of rainwater (Pacific NW) tend to have groundwater that is lower pH and softer - because the rain has leached many of the mineral ions out of the soil. Areas with less rainwater, or areas that have high mineral content in the soil, tend to have harder groundwater and higher pH. In Southern California, my city water is 8.0 - 8.5 pH out of the tap.

(2) TDS (total dissolved solids) measures total inorganic dissolved solids. Therefore it measures ions that contribute to water hardness (like calcium) and also ions that don't contribute to water hardness (like sodium). It can be used as a directional indicator of water hardness - but is not an exact measurement.

(3) Why do we care? As long as your water pH is in the range of 6.5 - 7.5, you don't need to worry. However as your water gets more acidic than 6.5, or more alkaline than 7.5, your plants will have greater difficulty taking up critical minerals. Once your water is pH of 8.0 or higher, your trees may show chlorosis due to lack of iron - even if there is plenty of iron in the soil. Above pH of about 7.5, and below pH of 6.3, phosphorus tends to react quickly with other minerals to form less soluble compounds - blocking the plant's uptake of phosphorus.



Here's a good read...

Soil pH and the Availability of Plant Nutrients

 

[PABonsai]

That’s a fair point. Much like most things, water sciences are not an area I have any great knowledge in. I assumed softeners were more mechanical, removing things from water rather than putting more stuff in.

Nope they work by ion exchange. you put in a salt like sodium chloride and it dissolves in water. Inside the softener is an exchange medium that the dissolved sodium ions coat and as the hard water passes through the sodium takes the place of the calcium or magnesium. Then the softener back flushes those minerals out every so often.

 

[PABonsai]

So many mistakes in this thread... your high school chemistry teachers are rolling their eyes atm.

(1) Yes hardness does impact pH. Hardness is a measure of the presence of mineral ions in water (typically calcium and to a lesser extent magnesium). Mineral ions will buffer changes in pH - keeping the water more alkaline (higher in pH). Because rain absorbs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, it is naturally acidic (5.6 pH or so). Areas that receive a lot of rainwater (Pacific NW) tend to have groundwater that is lower pH and softer - because the rain has leached many of the mineral ions out of the soil. Areas with less rainwater, or areas that have high mineral content in the soil, tend to have harder groundwater and higher pH. In Southern California, my city water is 8.0 - 8.5 pH out of the tap.

(2) TDS (total dissolved solids) measures total inorganic dissolved solids. Therefore it measures ions that contribute to water hardness (like calcium) and also ions that don't contribute to water hardness (like sodium). It can be used as a directional indicator of water hardness - but is not an exact measurement.

(3) Why do we care? As long as your water pH is in the range of 6.5 - 7.5, you don't need to worry. However as your water gets more acidic than 6.5, or more alkaline than 7.5, your plants will have greater difficulty taking up critical minerals. Once your water is pH of 8.0 or higher, your trees may show chlorosis due to lack of iron - even if there is plenty of iron in the soil. Above pH of about 7.5, and below pH of 6.3, phosphorus tends to react quickly with other minerals to form less soluble compounds - blocking the plant's uptake of phosphorus.

Come on Greg, none of that above appreciably changes what I've said. The "mistakes" are academic minutiae.

I didn't say dissolved minerals don't impact pH at all. In fact I said calcium would raise it....But you can in fact have hard water with low pH. Iron hardness is a good example because it's often specifically caused by the (low pH) acidity of the water. So you can't just say unequivocally dissolved minerals=alkaline pH (>7.0). This would most likely apply to city water. However, correct me if I'm wrong but in areas with sulfur deposits wouldn't you have acidic water as well? Since he is on well water, yes his slightly alkaline pH is probably coupled to his calcium deposits (which I already said).

And yes using TDS interchangeably with hardness may be a slight simplification, but it's not like it's invalid. Water treatment companies use them interchangeably. Culligan uses them interchangeably as well. And according to what you wrote above, my statement about pH 7.5 still being in a reasonable range is valid as well. Splitting hairs is for academia. Your posting just filled in some technical details.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Come on Greg, none of that above appreciably changes what I've said. The "mistakes" are academic minutiae.

I wasn't responding to what you said... I should have been more specific. I should have said "building on what @PABonsai said above...". Some of these subjects come up a number of times on the site, and I find myself cutting and pasting responses from other threads The pH chart I posted I think I have posted at least three times before

 

[PABonsai]

I wasn't responding to what you said... I should have been more specific. I should have said "building on what @PABonsai said above...".

Sorry! Feel free to delete my post. I thought you were calling me out! Lol. I even put the tongue face at the end so you knew I wasn't mad or anything.


By the way I've seen that here in other spots and I like that chart. It's pretty nifty!

 

[ConorDash]

On things like pots I'd try vinegar first. Someone else can comment on whether vinegar is safe for the trees themselves. I can't answer that one.

yeah tried, diluted, but never worked.. I can only increased the vinegar content and see. Apply with a toothbrush.

Hmmm, funny that a water softener company shows a map where most of the population needs their water softening!
But no, it is a problem for lots of people. Screwfix (and other reputable merchants) do something which joins to your pipework inline where water enters your property. Should sort it.

true, doesn’t seem most accurate but was a quick google.

 

[ConorDash]

ahh


ahh okay yeah thats sort of how ive seen it before not much of a problem besides leaving my trees and pots ugly lol but recently ive double guessed myself, how long have you been into bonsai?

Just started my 4th year. I’ve always used tap water, aside from short period to begin with, using rain water.

 

[PABonsai]

yeah tried, diluted, but never worked.. I can only increased the vinegar content and see. Apply with a toothbrush.

Have you tried soaking? I would soak to allow the vinegar time to work.

 

[ConorDash]

Soaking? How would one do that without it soaking down in to the substrate?

 

[PABonsai]

Soaking? How would one do that without it soaking down in to the substrate?

With the pot empty. I am assuming the buildup isn't too bad within the timeframe of when they are potted. So I would assume at time of repot you could soak the pot after removing the tree. I am not familiar with it on ceramic pots but on things like our showerhead and faucets it takes a few years to build up to a noticeable level. So if you're repotting every 1-3 years it might not be so bad.

 

[ConorDash]

Wait.. to clarify we are talking about build up on the tree itself, nebari and trunk, not the pot.. correct? Lol.
Build up on pot yeh sure that’s much easier to deal with but funny enough I don’t get anything on any pots.

I’ll show some pics in a bit when I can get out in daylight, probably weekend

 

[PABonsai]

Wait.. to clarify we are talking about build up on the tree itself, nebari and trunk, not the pot.. correct? Lol.

No. Lol completely talking about the pots. I don't want to give any advice on the tree itself. I'm not experienced with calcium on trees so I don't want to give bad advice. Lemon juice should work to some extent too and would be a lot safer for the tree.

 

[milehigh_7]

So many mistakes in this thread... your high school chemistry teachers are rolling their eyes atm.

(1) Yes hardness does impact pH. Hardness is a measure of the presence of mineral ions in water (typically calcium and to a lesser extent magnesium). Mineral ions will buffer changes in pH - keeping the water more alkaline (higher in pH). Because rain absorbs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, it is naturally acidic (5.6 pH or so). Areas that receive a lot of rainwater (Pacific NW) tend to have groundwater that is lower pH and softer - because the rain has leached many of the mineral ions out of the soil. Areas with less rainwater, or areas that have high mineral content in the soil, tend to have harder groundwater and higher pH. In Southern California, my city water is 8.0 - 8.5 pH out of the tap.

(2) TDS (total dissolved solids) measures total inorganic dissolved solids. Therefore it measures ions that contribute to water hardness (like calcium) and also ions that don't contribute to water hardness (like sodium). It can be used as a directional indicator of water hardness - but is not an exact measurement.

(3) Why do we care? As long as your water pH is in the range of 6.5 - 7.5, you don't need to worry. However as your water gets more acidic than 6.5, or more alkaline than 7.5, your plants will have greater difficulty taking up critical minerals. Once your water is pH of 8.0 or higher, your trees may show chlorosis due to lack of iron - even if there is plenty of iron in the soil. Above pH of about 7.5, and below pH of 6.3, phosphorus tends to react quickly with other minerals to form less soluble compounds - blocking the plant's uptake of phosphorus.

View attachment 270933

Here's a good read...

Soil pH and the Availability of Plant Nutrients

Thanks Greg!

 

[hemmy]

Some of these subjects come up a number of times on the site, and I find myself cutting and pasting responses from other threads The pH chart I posted I think I have posted at least three times before

Greg,
I’d suggest that this site could use a bonsai-centric ‘guide on understanding your irrigation water analysis’ in the resource section. There are many good articles published by extension agencies on reading a water analysis report, which would be similar to your water district’s water quality report if you live in the States. But it would be better if we created our own resource, simplifying and citing those documents so that the document can reside here and not be a possible future broken link.

Your above summary and link are good, but IMO they leave out a crucial detail. They don’t mention buffering capacity. As I’m sure you and other posters are aware, alkalinity is a measurement of the buffering capacity of the solution. Simply put, the ability of the water to change the pH of the substrate. It might be complicating the discussion, but I think it is an important to establish that although pH is related to alkalinity, pH is only an indication of the acidic or alkaline nature of the water. Alkalinity actually measures the dissolved bases, primarily bicarbonates and carbonates. While high hardness, TDS, and pH can all indicate high alkalinity, there can be situations where a high (alkaline) ph water has an acceptable lower alkalinity for plants. Which means the water will have low buffering capacity and take a long time to make the substrate more alkaline (if ever, considering the presence of acids from organics, fertilizers, or the plant).

I believe this is relevant because the same volume of acid can have very different impacts on the same pH water depending on the alkalinity. Also before someone else chimes in with ‘water quality doesn’t matter’ or ‘if you can drink it so can your plants’, know that this is true if you live somewhere with good to marginal water that also receives rainfall. As many of us in the arid Western US know, marginal water is certainly made worse by lack of rainfall and it can certainly have a negative impact on nutrient uptake. (Climbs off soapbox)

I have some good links to additional extension papers and an acid calculator. I will post them up on a new thread and maybe we can crowdsource a resource guide for future reference.

 

[BoostedBonsai]

ahh yeah okay ima need to just to know that way i know what the right mode of action is , and no i live in the cuts i have well water

so i did a TDS test and this is what i got, i beleive its not that bad just like 7.5 ph is not that bad but not great

 

[Japonicus]

so i did a TDS test and this is what i got, i beleive its not that bad just like 7.5 ph is not that bad but not great

That's hard. My tap's like 150-ish (considered hard) and my RO unit with like 98.6% rejection rate gets it down to less than 3ppm.
Folks in Arizona know HARD water. Some municipalities >800ppm.
I forget the formula ATM to gauge your rejection rate on RO membrane, but running all your water through one
is painstakingly time consuming if you have say more than a dozen trees, unless you make it in bulk to store.
Rain water collection is a good option, but IDK the ins and outs of keeping it aerated and so on. Have never collected it myself.

 

[Japonicus]

Your meter reading...with hot water, wash and triple rinse a glass vessel 1st.
Any dishwater residue, salts, or soap residue will skew your reading.

 

[BoostedBonsai]

That's hard. My tap's like 150-ish (considered hard) and my RO unit with like 98.6% rejection rate gets it down to less than 3ppm.
Folks in Arizona know HARD water. Some municipalities >800ppm.
I forget the formula ATM to gauge your rejection rate on RO membrane, but running all your water through one
is painstakingly time consuming if you have say more than a dozen trees, unless you make it in bulk to store.
Rain water collection is a good option, but IDK the ins and outs of keeping it aerated and so on. Have never collected it myself.

oh shit but its 300 is doable ? and does like one of them faucet drinkin water filters work same?