Overwinter Plan

[littletreefarmer]

Well, not so good news. My HOA sent me a letter telling me to remove my cold frame or I'll be fined. I'm not going to get into the details of why my cold frame is any different than storage boxes for patio furniture outside because it makes me irritated.

So now I need to rethink what the heck I'm going to do.

1. Store them in the garage and do the shuffle. My garage is unheated, but attached with a good insulated door. I have never tracked temps in the garage, but I do think it'll be 40-50 in the garage all winter unless I keep it cracked open at all times.
2. Store them on my deck in a large plastic bin/large cooler/foam cooler, mulched above the rim, and on top of heating coils. I'm thinking of using a method I found on Bonsai Empire:
   • Lay down 2" of foam
   • Lay down plywood on top
   • Set bin on top of plywood
   • Lay down thin layer of mulch in the bin
   • Add the heating coils
   • Set trees on top of the coils
   • Mulch trees above the rim
   • This would also offer me the flexibility to move them into the garage if it gets way too cold (I'll be monitoring soil temps with digital thermometers), but definitely something I want to avoid.

This selective enforcement of HOA rules is crap. Why should I be under more scrutiny just because I live nextdoor to the HOA president? Blah...I digress.

Used to deal with similar issues from a housing authority. Decided to execute my rights under capitalism and spend my money to buy a home to accommodate my trees, and pay my taxes to a somewhat less oppressive governing body. Both my peace of mind and trees have thrived since. HOA's are shit, and they only exist because people pay them and allow them to exist.

To add to the discussion: overwintering on your porch in the way you laid out should work out for you, based on my experiences, but I'm in zone 6. I didn't lose any trees while I lived with only a balcony. You will probably worry all winter, though. I would think that the 40-50 degrees in your garage is probably too warm. My garage is similar temps, and I will not attempt to winter any trees there due to risk of confusing them. The ground is obviously best, but you've gotta do what you've gotta do sometimes. I wish you the best and hopefully some peaceful thoughts this winter.

**You did just teach me about molemax, though, and I thank you 1000 times for that.

 

[Zac]

Well, not so good news. My HOA sent me a letter telling me to remove my cold frame or I'll be fined. I'm not going to get into the details of why my cold frame is any different than storage boxes for patio furniture outside because it makes me irritated.

So now I need to rethink what the heck I'm going to do.

1. Store them in the garage and do the shuffle. My garage is unheated, but attached with a good insulated door. I have never tracked temps in the garage, but I do think it'll be 40-50 in the garage all winter unless I keep it cracked open at all times.
2. Store them on my deck in a large plastic bin/large cooler/foam cooler, mulched above the rim, and on top of heating coils. I'm thinking of using a method I found on Bonsai Empire:
   • Lay down 2" of foam
   • Lay down plywood on top
   • Set bin on top of plywood
   • Lay down thin layer of mulch in the bin
   • Add the heating coils
   • Set trees on top of the coils
   • Mulch trees above the rim
   • This would also offer me the flexibility to move them into the garage if it gets way too cold (I'll be monitoring soil temps with digital thermometers), but definitely something I want to avoid.

This selective enforcement of HOA rules is crap. Why should I be under more scrutiny just because I live nextdoor to the HOA president? Blah...I digress.

Sorry to hear. The one nursery I bought some of my pre-bonsai from recommended over wintering the trees similarly to option 2 except without the foam and plywood or heating coils. They said to get oversized tote and set on ground add a couple inches of mulch to Bottom. Then add trees and mulch up to lowest branch. Said could add frost blanket over top and on really cold nights place lid on. I never tried it because I just mulch mine in along foundation and less hardy pre-bonsai I mulch in in window well. I think the tote needs to be on the ground to get the warmth otherwise it will be relying on the heating coils. I will never buy a house were there's a HOA!!!!
My house and land someone else is not going to tell me what I can and can't do.

 

[Jrmcmich]

I have A similar garage attached and pretty well insulated. I monitored temps last year and saw 40-50 myself even when it got cold in teens didn’t get below freezing so I couldnt Use garage either. Sorry to hear about HOA. Seems like your option would be sound. How large was cold frame?

 

[Colorado]

Does your garage have a window? If so, I think cracking the window would make it plenty cold in there.

My garage is attached, but it does get below freezing when it’s really cold outside, even without cracking the window.

Personally I think your trees would probably be fine in the garage. Those species don’t need to get all that cold. I think your JBP and maples would be toast if you leave them outside in Minnesota all winter. Your grumpy neighbor may have been a blessing in disguise

 

[leatherback]

My HOA sent me a letter telling me to remove my cold frame or I'll be fined.

You are not allowed to have a container with plants next to your house?
Does your landlord have that much say?

 

[bonsaiwood]

My wife and I used to live in a neighborhood ran by an HOA, so I know firsthand what you are going through. It was kind of a 'make friends with the board to earn some project exceptions' or 'disassociate with them entirely, DIY, and risk one or more of them hating us'. My best suggestion would be to try talking out your plans (politely) with the board Pres. Just be honest about what you are wanting to do and why. Someone should listen, after all, you are paying into the HOA. The whole process sucks, but definitely comb through the CCR's/by-laws first to rule out anything unusual about your project.

 

[turnyface]

I appreciate all the responses. I've appealed to the board on several merits and waiting for a hearing. I have been hesitant about the outdoor setup to begin with (hence the de-icing cables), so at the very least, I think I'm going to overwinter my maples in the garage. I might also split up half my JBPs in the garage and half in the cold frame (if it's approved) to test my first winter with trees anyway. I think the Itoigawa Shimipakus are the hardiest trees I have and should be fine outdoors in the cold frame.

More to come, but this is my first HOA "violation" in 7 years at my house...

 

[turnyface]

Great news! The HOA approved my cold frame after a thorough explanation.

Not sure why it was a big deal to them. I had to do a lot of tongue biting and try to be as dispassionate as possible, but I'll take the victory in the end.

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

well that's good news, i was gonna say otherwise it sounds like you've gotta run for hoa president so you can be the one who selectively enforces rules

 

[Paradox]

Glad you were able to get approval...but what a crock of sh....
I hate HOAs and Im glad there isnt one where I live

 

[turnyface]

So far so good! We’ve had temps in the lower to middle teens the last couple of nights and daytime temps hovering in the high teens/low 20’s (Fahrenheit). The trees in the cold frame are just dipped below 32F for the first time. I put them in on a day when we had mid 50’s (overnight lows were high 20’s/low 30’s for a solid three weeks) with temps expected to plummet the next day.

I did reserve a couple black pines and Itoigawa as well as all my maples for garage storage. My garage hovers between 40-50F. Is this cold enough for winter dormancy?

 

[Jrmcmich]

Are you using a heater? What you using to record temperature?

 

[turnyface]

Are you using a heater? What you using to record temperature?

I do have heating cables (roof de-icing cables, actually). But they won’t turn on until the root temp drops to 20F (Bonsai Heresy says root kill temp is 10F for the trees in my collection, so heating a bit higher for safety). I’m hoping they won’t have to turn on, though.

I am using some temp sensors buried deep in the soil of the pot that I found on Amazon.

https://a.co/d/gNPyHR7

 

[rockm]

So far so good! We’ve had temps in the lower to middle teens the last couple of nights and daytime temps hovering in the high teens/low 20’s (Fahrenheit). The trees in the cold frame are just dipped below 32F for the first time. I put them in on a day when we had mid 50’s (overnight lows were high 20’s/low 30’s for a solid three weeks) with temps expected to plummet the next day.

I did reserve a couple black pines and Itoigawa as well as all my maples for garage storage. My garage hovers between 40-50F. Is this cold enough for winter dormancy?

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40-50 is way too warm for dormacy. Expect early bud break if that's consistent. 30-35 is optimal.

 

[turnyface]

First night of subzero temps! Trees outside are still “warm” relative to the ambient air temperature. We’re only supposed to cross 5 F tomorrow before dipping back below zero tomorrow night, so it’ll be interesting to see how low the root temperatures will get and if I’ll need the heating coils.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting set up! We used data loggers and actual digital thermometers for our work on bonsai media temperatures a couple years back. These loggers are cool. We still use Gouvee in each greenhouse, with a control node outside to compare with even today, But one has to split freqs on a mesh router to isolate a 2.4mhz band to run these.

To answer your question. Between >32F to <42F (0C to 5.5C) a tree will accumulate one chilling hour for each hour in the zone… or partial hours. It does not matter where in this zone the temperature is. To give a safety margin many folks like to keep the temps in the middle of the zone.

Technically some researchers have stated there are some trees that accumulate chilling hours for temps below 45F (7.2C) to freezing

When researching this topic found the literature shows woody plants will not accumulate chilling hours if the temperatures are below the zone <32F… or above the zone, say >42F-45F

Note the above information is predicated on using the simplest model for chilling hours. There are some new models that are more esoteric. However these are impractical for use by bonsai hobbyists…the simple model seems to do good enough. But if one loves to do deep dives into research and literature reviews, it is a very interesting evolving topic…. Another would be a study of USDA Plant Hardiness Zone migration towards the Poles, but that’s off
the topic….

I tested some of our trees using 40F as a standard temperature in our cold greenhouses for the past two years to no noticeable effect in the trees health. All trees came out robust, healthy and ready for a full year of work. This year both greenhouses are set to 36F/2.2C to compare… also to see if the energy savings are appreciable.

Please watch the soil moisture levels of the trees in the garage, especially if there is a peat or coir component in the media as these tend to dry fairly quickly… as witnessed by a number of folks posting on BN.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[turnyface]

Interesting set up! We used data loggers and actual digital thermometers for our work on bonsai media temperatures a couple years back. These loggers are cool. We still use Gouvee in each greenhouse, with a control node outside to compare with even today, But one has to split freqs on a mesh router to isolate a 2.4mhz band to run these.

To answer your question. Between >32F to <42F (0C to 5.5C) a tree will accumulate one chilling hour for each hour in the zone… or partial hours. It does not matter where in this zone the temperature is. To give a safety margin many folks like to keep the temps in the middle of the zone.

Technically some researchers have stated there are some trees that accumulate chilling hours for temps below 45F (7.2C) to freezing

When researching this topic found the literature shows woody plants will not accumulate chilling hours if the temperatures are below the zone <32F… or above the zone, say >42F-45F

Note the above information is predicated on using the simplest model for chilling hours. There are some new models that are more esoteric. However these are impractical for use by bonsai hobbyists…the simple model seems to do good enough. But if one loves to do deep dives into research and literature reviews, it is a very interesting evolving topic…. Another would be a study of USDA Plant Hardiness Zone migration towards the Poles, but that’s off
the topic….

I tested some of our trees using 40F as a standard temperature in our cold greenhouses for the past two years to no noticeable effect in the trees health. All trees came out robust, healthy and ready for a full year of work. This year both greenhouses are set to 36F/2.2C to compare… also to see if the energy savings are appreciable.

Please watch the soil moisture levels of the trees in the garage, especially if there is a peat or coir component in the media as these tend to dry fairly quickly… as witnessed by a number of folks posting on BN.

Cheers
DSD sends

Thanks for the reminder!