Overwatering

Gr8tfuldad

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This is more of a hypothetical question. If someone is using 1/4 particle size of 25% pine bark, 25% DE, 25% Pumice and 25% Lava, is it possible to overwater? In traditional soil, I assume trees become over watered because of a lack of air. So in a free draining soil is it impossible to over water a tree since oxygen will be available? Thanks everyone!
 

nutshell

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I was taught with organic mix "it's much easier to under water than over water". That should be more true with free draining bonsai soil. But you also have to factor in location, time of year, weather, type of tree, tree's health etc.. lots of variables.
 
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What happens with peat based soil is that when they get too dry then they become hidrophobic, you can water and see the upper part wet and water coming out but you scrach the surface and its bone dry just a few millimeters bellow
 

Lorax7

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It’s not possible to water too much (assuming use of an appropriate spray nozzle and reasonable flow rate). It is possible to water too frequently.
 

0soyoung

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Overwatering, IMHO, relates to frequency.
Every substrate/soil has a saturation level or a depth at which the availability of air (air-filled-porosity) is too low to support root growth long-term. The shallow trays of maple bonsai are typically shallower than the saturation level of the substrate. However, growing trees are able to extract most of this water (as well as water evaporating directly into the air through the substrate surface) well before the roots drown. That is, IF one does not water again before this. On the other hand, were one planting trees in pots significantly deeper than the saturation level, one might see 'overwatering' to be impossible because the roots are never in a saturated zone of the substrate/soil. But one could leave the hose running water into the pot as fast as it will flow out, which would definitely be overwatering. So,

it is always possible to water too frequently, hence it is always possible to 'overwater'.

Overwatering = watering too frequently


One wants to water until water is draining out of the pot, then stop, and not water again until the substrate/soil is on the threshold of 'too dry'. When leaves begin to droop, it is 'too dry'. Some use a chopstick plunged into the pot as a dipstick and some use wiggling a finger into it to learn what things are like near this threshold and to train themselves in 'the art of watering'.
 

Gr8tfuldad

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Overwatering, IMHO, relates to frequency.
Every substrate/soil has a saturation level or a depth at which the availability of air (air-filled-porosity) is too low to support root growth long-term. The shallow trays of maple bonsai are typically shallower than the saturation level of the substrate. However, growing trees are able to extract most of this water (as well as water evaporating directly into the air through the substrate surface) well before the roots drown. That is, IF one does not water again before this. On the other hand, were one planting trees in pots significantly deeper than the saturation level, one might see 'overwatering' to be impossible because the roots are never in a saturated zone of the substrate/soil. But one could leave the hose running water into the pot as fast as it will flow out, which would definitely be overwatering. So,

it is always possible to water too frequently, hence it is always possible to 'overwater'.

Overwatering = watering too frequently


One wants to water until water is draining out of the pot, then stop, and not water again until the substrate/soil is on the threshold of 'too dry'. When leaves begin to droop, it is 'too dry'. Some use a chopstick plunged into the pot as a dipstick and some use wiggling a finger into it to learn what things are like near this threshold and to train themselves in 'the art of watering'.

So if one was to water too frequently in a free draining soil the tree would decline in health?
 

canoeguide

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This is more of a hypothetical question. If someone is using 1/4 particle size of 25% pine bark, 25% DE, 25% Pumice and 25% Lava, is it possible to overwater? In traditional soil, I assume trees become over watered because of a lack of air. So in a free draining soil is it impossible to over water a tree since oxygen will be available? Thanks everyone!
I use this mix precisely for most of my trees (except I use Fir bark instead of Pine bark). I adjust components a bit accordingly, but I start with 1:1:1:1 of pumice, lava, DE (Napa 8822), and fir bark (reptibark), sifted to discard anything smaller than 1/8". I'll go as much as 50/50 pumice/fir bark for collected stuff or when I'm lazy, or drop the fir bark entirely for succulents like Portulacaria afra, etc.

To answer your question directly, I've never been able to overwater the species I have to the point that leaves start yellowing or roots start rotting. This is especially true in the summer when everything is growing and outdoors. With that said, I can (especially for tropicals indoors in the winter) water too much/too frequently to the point that I start seeing fungus gnats. That's a good warning sign that you need to back off. Other than that, I don't worry much at all about watering too much and tend to err on the side of watering the hell out of everything in the summer. A bonsai watered too much can usually be corrected. A bonsai watered too little one time might be dead.

Like everything, this is a bit of an "it depends" answer. Wind, temperature, hours of sunlight, humidity, container size, container shape, species, etc. all play a role. But no, generally, I find this mix (well sifted, with 3 inorganic components out of 4 total) to be pretty forgiving and have not had any issues with overwatering. The DE has the added benefit of being a reliable indicator of soil moisture, at least at the surface: it's dark when wet and bright white when dry.
 
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0soyoung

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So if one was to water too frequently in a free draining soil the tree would decline in health?
Substitute could for would and, yes, I could agree with what you said.
Maybe we need to define what 'free draining' means, if we are to continue.

But, to illustrate, I grow everything (more than 100 plants across more than 50 distinct species) in Turface MVP. Pines do well in pond baskets and when crammed into the smallest pot that I can get them into, but do indeed decline in health if in a relatively shallow pot that has some 'room for growth'. New needles turn yellow and their general vitality declines from one year to the next.
It became too much of a pain in the ass to be constantly checking these for when they needed water, so I moved them into much larger grained pumice (as comparable grain size high-fired montmorillonite clay media is hard to come by). Those pines (in shallow-ish pots with room to grow) regained their vigor in their same pots filled, with bigger grained pumice, and with me watering them with the same frequency that I do my other trees.
 
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Shibui

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Initially it seems very difficult to overwater a large particle mix but after a couple of years the spaces are all filled with roots. Organic particles have started to break down into smaller particles. If you are still watering at the same frequency that was OK in year 1 you can now be overwatering and can get problems.
It is easy to be complacent and not watch out for the changes through the repotting cycles.
I've had several sick trees over the past few years that I've attributed to these factors.
 

clem

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Ray Neil says that the key of an healthy tree is a balance between water and o²
On some species, for exemple acer, you can water again even if the soil surface is still humid/wet.
On pines, you should look at the "humidity level" on the soil surface before watering again (soil surface should be dry on 1cm before to water again.) If you have moss developping on the soil surface of pines, some Bonsai pros say that it means that you water too frequently...

On youtube you can probably find videos about watering
 

Bnana

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Initially it seems very difficult to overwater a large particle mix but after a couple of years the spaces are all filled with roots. Organic particles have started to break down into smaller particles.
I think you're right, in a course well draining soil there is air and oxygen everywhere. But over time this becomes less as Shibui error.
 

Mike Corazzi

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Initially it seems very difficult to overwater a large particle mix but after a couple of years the spaces are all filled with roots. Organic particles have started to break down into smaller particles. If you are still watering at the same frequency that was OK in year 1 you can now be overwatering and can get problems.
It is easy to be complacent and not watch out for the changes through the repotting cycles.
I've had several sick trees over the past few years that I've attributed to these factors.
As roots fill the spaces in large particle soil, I'd think you would notice slower draining when you water. ??
 

River's Edge

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This is more of a hypothetical question. If someone is using 1/4 particle size of 25% pine bark, 25% DE, 25% Pumice and 25% Lava, is it possible to overwater? In traditional soil, I assume trees become over watered because of a lack of air. So in a free draining soil is it impossible to over water a tree since oxygen will be available? Thanks everyone!
50% of your mix is very heavy moisture retentive. The pine bark and the DE, therefore I would say yes it would be possible to overwater, plus the organic content of the pine bark and structural characteristics of DE are more conducive to breaking down into finer particles quicker than lava and pumice so the question of compaction enters into the equation sooner rather than later. Just my thoughts.
 

Bnana

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This depends a lot on your DE. It holds a lot of water but if it's coarse and high-fired it won't break down and leaves large voids for air. That's why I like it, holds water but won't become anaerobic.
It seems it's not as good in the US.
 

Lorax7

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That would make sure that overwatering is not an issue.
Depends on the size of the marbles. At some point, it just ends up being ooid sand if the marbles are small enough.
 
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