rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I hope you're a young person....
On the hunt for young virginia pine to develop
- Thread starter naleshin
- Start date
Spry at 28! I think even if I was older (to the point where I wouldn't live long enough to see my trees enter refinement), I'd still be developing material to pass on. The reward's very much in the journey for me so far. Though, I only started in 2020, & I know people fall on/off but here's to hoping I stick with it for life hahaI hope you're a young person....
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
Basically a growers mix varies according to what is on hand, Over the past 50+ years it has been different things for me. It is a mix that for me is mostly organic and can contain peat or coco coir, perlite., pine bark, leaf mold, compost, or any number of ingredients. It is a mix designed to grow things in, thus a growers mix. It is not a mix for the bonsai pot. I have about a thousand plants in growers mix and the mixes vary widely from plant to plant. Frankly, I did not expect the pines to survive because they were mostly bare root, but they have survived but changed very little. They have developed a bit finer ramification in the pots compared to those in the ground.
Understood. From what I've learned so far, I think 100% inorganic is definitely the way to go when recovering any pine material. It seems the best practice is just using pure pumice/perlite & either having a wooden box to match the root system, or a pond basket/colander.
GGB
Masterpiece
Sheffield’s normally carries Virginia pine seed, and cones should ripen around October if you can locate your own. I love the purple twigs with lime green needles. Always wanted one. Or if you ever visit natures way nursery they pop up everywhere as weeds. I’m sure Jim would let you snag a few. I have a very green thumb and can get away with doing all kinds of atrocities out of season, but one thing I haven’t been able to do is keep a Virginia pine alive very long. I agree that they must need nearly sterile, rocky soil and some level of neglect that I can’t muster
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
For a Ponderosa pine, yes. These pines in my back yard, no.
Most of my Scots pines, Black Pines and Japanese White Pine are in pond baskets. These are not collected trees though.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
VAFisher
Masterpiece
I have a bunch around my property here in Goochland. If any Richmond folks want to try to collect some, you're more than welcome.
VAFisher
Masterpiece
I dug this one up on my property and grew it for several years. I ended up killing it by getting impatient and trying to get it into a much smaller pot. I've been meaning to try again.
I may have to take you up on that offer this spring! That was a really nice example, hope you do try again soon
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I am not going back to re-read the entire thread, so if I repeat something others have said, my apologies.
If you are collecting a tree, it is only worth collecting if the first 6 inches or so (15cm or so) of trunk are visually interesting. There needs to be "something", preferably more than one ''something". Movement, bends and twists, caliper, at least some diameter, interesting bark, maybe a deadwood feature. There needs to be some trait of interest in the first 6 inches of trunk or the tree is not worth the effort to collect. This is being said because I have seen many, including myself waste many years trying to make a telephone pole straight trunk look interesting by getting crazy with the top of the tree. It just turns into an exercise in frustration. Save yourself. Start by selecting an interesting first 6 inches of trunk. This is a secret to collecting trees from the wild. Best if the trunk has 2 or more features of interest.
Second, when growing from seed, you get to build into the trunk the character I mention above as the seedling grows. So do yourself a favor. Select the best species possible for your climate for its foliage traits for bonsai. For example the OP is in zone 7b. If I were there I would NOT bother raising virginia pine from seed. The Virginia pine has long-ish needles for bonsai, and the needles tend to twist. Twisting needles are a definite "flaw" in bonsai. Not a fatal flaw, but if you are growing from seed, why not use a proven species like Japanese black pine? Here the needles are straight, and there are proven techniques for getting needle length reduction on more mature trees. Now if you did want to raise Virginia pine, my suggestion would be to start 1000 or more seedlings in several flats. Leave them in flats until end of second year. Then go through and cull 90 to 95% of the seedlings. Keep only the straight needle seedlings and the shortest needle seedlings. Compost the rest.
Similarly, I am in zone 6a, I won't plant eastern white pine, I'll plant Japanese white pine. Japanese white pine is fairly variable from seed, color will range from yellow-green to blue-green, some will have twisting needles, some will have straight needles. There will be a range of needle lengths. Only 5% or less of the seedlings will really be suitable for bonsai in having nice blue-green color with shorter straight needles and reasonable growth habit. This is part of the reason most of the JWP in North America are grafted.
Ponderosa is another pine. A collected Ponderosa trunk of 100 or more years of age can not be beat, the bark alone is enough to make one forget about its long needles. Yet a Ponderosa seedling is a total waste of time, because the "good trait" that makes a Ponderosa bonsai, simply won't develop on a seedling in a mere mortal's lifetime. You simply can not develop the "great trunk and bark" needed to offset the long floppy needles. Seedling Ponderosa will always be a "fail" as bonsai. Collected 100+ year old Ponderosa are almost always bonsai successes.
So if you are raising pines from seed, don't plant ponderosa, plant pine seed that has a chance at becoming decent bonsai. Pick a species hardy in your climate zone with reasonably short needles, preferably straight needles, and good back budding capabilities.
If you are collecting a tree, it is only worth collecting if the first 6 inches or so (15cm or so) of trunk are visually interesting. There needs to be "something", preferably more than one ''something". Movement, bends and twists, caliper, at least some diameter, interesting bark, maybe a deadwood feature. There needs to be some trait of interest in the first 6 inches of trunk or the tree is not worth the effort to collect. This is being said because I have seen many, including myself waste many years trying to make a telephone pole straight trunk look interesting by getting crazy with the top of the tree. It just turns into an exercise in frustration. Save yourself. Start by selecting an interesting first 6 inches of trunk. This is a secret to collecting trees from the wild. Best if the trunk has 2 or more features of interest.
Second, when growing from seed, you get to build into the trunk the character I mention above as the seedling grows. So do yourself a favor. Select the best species possible for your climate for its foliage traits for bonsai. For example the OP is in zone 7b. If I were there I would NOT bother raising virginia pine from seed. The Virginia pine has long-ish needles for bonsai, and the needles tend to twist. Twisting needles are a definite "flaw" in bonsai. Not a fatal flaw, but if you are growing from seed, why not use a proven species like Japanese black pine? Here the needles are straight, and there are proven techniques for getting needle length reduction on more mature trees. Now if you did want to raise Virginia pine, my suggestion would be to start 1000 or more seedlings in several flats. Leave them in flats until end of second year. Then go through and cull 90 to 95% of the seedlings. Keep only the straight needle seedlings and the shortest needle seedlings. Compost the rest.
Similarly, I am in zone 6a, I won't plant eastern white pine, I'll plant Japanese white pine. Japanese white pine is fairly variable from seed, color will range from yellow-green to blue-green, some will have twisting needles, some will have straight needles. There will be a range of needle lengths. Only 5% or less of the seedlings will really be suitable for bonsai in having nice blue-green color with shorter straight needles and reasonable growth habit. This is part of the reason most of the JWP in North America are grafted.
Ponderosa is another pine. A collected Ponderosa trunk of 100 or more years of age can not be beat, the bark alone is enough to make one forget about its long needles. Yet a Ponderosa seedling is a total waste of time, because the "good trait" that makes a Ponderosa bonsai, simply won't develop on a seedling in a mere mortal's lifetime. You simply can not develop the "great trunk and bark" needed to offset the long floppy needles. Seedling Ponderosa will always be a "fail" as bonsai. Collected 100+ year old Ponderosa are almost always bonsai successes.
So if you are raising pines from seed, don't plant ponderosa, plant pine seed that has a chance at becoming decent bonsai. Pick a species hardy in your climate zone with reasonably short needles, preferably straight needles, and good back budding capabilities.
I agree, if searching for proper yamadori. My interest in this thread was just finding seedlings to work with. I learn something new every time I dig up a tree, even seedlings, and it's good practice to learn to recover low value material before going for the good stuff.
I also agree with this for the most part, but I think the needle length idea isn't as pertinent. Virginia pine naturally comes in at 4-8cm, JWP 5-6cm, JBP 7-12cm... & of course, like you said, foliage reduction can come later in refinement. And I want to work with those twisting needles that v. pine has. Why not use JBP? I already am, JBP, JWP, JRP, mugo, scots... Why not work with US native pines? Bjorn Bjorholm has a great collected virginia pine. VAFisher had a nice example in this thread. Andrew Robson has a great loblolly. I don't know why people are so averse to our natives. I love the tried and true bonsai species but I really think people haven't given our natives a proper chance. Even in broadleaf species- bigleaf maple reduces, red maple reduces, etc. Great genetics help but just because the leaves are still huge after year 2 of refinement doesn't mean we should scrap it, give up, and dismiss it entirely.
I understand where you're coming from here, but I disagree with the idea that seedling -insert longish needle pine here- will always "fail" as a bonsai. If someone's growing from seed, you can start out with great roots, great movement, and build that character in year after year. Foliage length can reduce over time through bonsai techniques, sure there's a genetic limit but I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that people have found that limit for most US native species (if you have any sources, please do share).
I don't care if it doesn't become a true "bonsai" in my lifetime, the reward's in the journey and developing material from young stages is extremely interesting and rewarding for me. I'll be happy to pass on trees when I pass.
Doogliebop
Mame
I just bought a few V.pine 1-2 yr.seedlings from a seller on eBay a week or so ago to develop them as bonsai. They were all healthy and packed very well. It was a pain in the ass to find them. I actually just stumbled across his listing wit no pictures. I took a chance and they are indeed Virginia pine. Now let's see if I can get them to survive in my South Louisiana 9a heat. Message me if you want the listing.
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Leo in N E Illinois
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Fair enough, we all like to grow what we like to grow. I have a friend with a seedling slash pine, we are talking foot long needles, he loves it, its a stick with a mop on top, extreme enough that I enjoy seeing it, I won't call it bonsai, but I enjoy seeing it.
. Virginia pine certainly can with time make good bonsai. Also Pinus taeda, loblolly makes good bonsai. Yes, most of the North American pines have some potential and more work generally needs to be done with them.
I grouse about seedlings when I am feeling my age. Then collected trees make more sense because I don't have 40 years to raise seedlings anymore (I'm 67, and doubt I'd make it to 107 in shape enough to keep watering trees). On the other hand, why not plan ahead. I should plant some seed, and have every intention of living long enough to exhibit them. Why not?
zero
Mame
I’ve found a number going collecting in NC. But that’s with friends and they’re better at distinguishing them from the loblolly and long leaf pines and short leaf pines. They have surprisingly similar looks when younger. We do find seedlings quite often and every year I try and make an attempt to collect a good older specimen. If I ever come up with something cool I’ll for sure let you know @naleshin
I have one currently I’m growing from a collection last year- let’s see if I can keep it alive! I love the idea of training native pines, and after seeing that beautiful one Tyler Sherrod had at Winter Silhouette last year it’s a goal for me to find a great collected species.
I have one currently I’m growing from a collection last year- let’s see if I can keep it alive! I love the idea of training native pines, and after seeing that beautiful one Tyler Sherrod had at Winter Silhouette last year it’s a goal for me to find a great collected species.
