Newbie--help me with my indoor grow setup please!

[Aquaticjade]

I also keep running into the issue of fertilizing, but it hasn't come up yet.
It won't really be an option, or it will affect the water quality for the newts.
Compost should be safe and effective though. Maybe something like organic fert pellets similar to osmocote would be an option if used sparingly.

OP had mentioned planting the trees in akadama, which wouldn't be awful normally, but if fertilizer regimens are off the table, this won't be the best idea.
In the flip side, though, this makes it cheaper, freeing up resources for other parts of the project.

That's a good point to bring up that I suppose I completely forgot to mention to further complicate things. With the soil being directly overhead the water source in the paludarium, fertilizers will have to be off the table. The only way around that is to keep the trees potted in the paludarium and then cover the pots with akadama and moss. To fertilize I will just have to move the moss, feed the pot, and be done. Theres not too much scientific material available in regards to amphibians and synthetic fertilizers like the liquid water column ferts I am accustomed to using in my fish tanks. With this particular species of newt due to their rarity I am not willing to risk water column dosing. So another debate to be had! Unpot the trees in the paludarium and let the roots grow crazy with no feeding, or keep them potted indefinitely with fertilizer? At one point or another the roots will probably grow deep enough to hit the water table, which because of the newt waste would provide the tree with nitrogen and my tap also has a higher phosphate level. However my tap is soft and lacking trace minerals as well as potassium. Not sure how bonsai works but in the aquarium world to do a higher tech like my co2 injected tank for example, I cannot allow a growth limiting factor on NPK or micro nutrients like iron or I will run into problems.

 

[Aquaticjade]

I joined this forum recently because of my new interest in bonsai,…and encountered this thread. I’m no way an expert of either bonsai or elm, but I can give you advice on paludarium setup. Rules can be broken through experimenting. The art of bonsai is a result of experimentation. (Try to go to a saltwater forum and say you run your tank Synthetic Dutch method aka no water change. You will face a lot of challengers.)

For a paludarium setup, lighting-water-airflow-placement are important things to consider. I saw that some of your leaves turned yellow. It could be a light shock situation where you didn’t acclimate the trees properly with ramping up the light slowly. High-end LED can burn your plant depends on which brands you are using. I’m not sure what your current plan is for the tank and if it has changed from the original post. Maybe you can give us an update on its current status?

if elm requires a dormancy period, maybe you can build this tank around its requirement: lighting simulation, temp drop, etc. it can go pretty high tech and time consuming!! Or can you plant your elms in a way that you can remove them from the main tank for dormancy without compromise the aesthetics?

Paludarium pic attached for credential (don’t come for me) A lot of plants’ placements took a lot of consideration and planning because they are all from different climate around the world but they all work and thrive for years. I hope you can find a way to make your situation work and everything happy!

I am currently “experimenting” growing trees indoor too but I won’t post until I’m confident with the finished result. Cheers!

Beautiful! I like your wabi kusa wall. For your emersed growth on the water line, are you using wabi kusa balls? The light I'm using is a twinstar ea, so the second to highest powered twinstar they offer. But these trees apparently need much stronger lighting than even the highest demanding aquarium plants. Hard to believe the twinstar isn't enough juice! But the members here say still not a high enough PAR rating for these trees in particular. I think these elms can survive a few years as evergreens with no dormancy, but as for an entire lifespan, it's not looking so. Seems the goal now is just to ride these out for however long I can, and plan on having to replant the paludarium with a ficus species some time later down the line.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Dude, you're recommending lightbulb well underpowered man. For comparison sake vegetative growing for uhhh 'tomato" indoors is at least 250 PAR. Getting them to flower needs at least 500 PAR. Your light bulb is 20 PAR lol.

That would be a total waste of $20+

I did a little unscientific experiment last winter where I did not give my ficus and newly acquired miracle berry bush any supplemental light. I had a 4X4' T5 HO light. It grew the same as the year before when it had the light for about 12hr/day.
The miracle berry bush grew well too without supplemental light. They were placed in front of large south facing window.

You're talking about a ficus that may not even need the cheap light. The subject here is elm.

So I just combed through some aquarium forums to try and find someone that used a PAR meter on my specific light. Keep in mind this was measured inside the tank (with water) so im not sure if the PAR rating is at all affected when filtered through a body of water. The readings are at 10 cm (approx 3-4 inches) the PAR rating is 340. At 20cm (approx 7 inches) the PAR rating is 194 and at 30cm (approx 11 inches) it is 138. So the PAR rating for this light where I have it positioned is around 340 unless the PAR rating is very different value when filtered through water (I think without water the PAR is actually a bit higher). Another thread on this forum suggest sun loving plants need something above 90 PAR (as a minimum value). So using that data as a reference, this light should in theory be somewhat sufficient for the trees. I found a nifty PAR meter app that is still in beta so it's accuracy is TBD although some reviews tested against a control and said it was fairly accurate, so I'm going to test it out when I get home and see what that tells me also. It uses your phones front facing camera, the newer and higher tech the phone the better it will read (I have a Samsung s21 so should be pretty good).

 

[rockm]

Um, err, lighting is not a constant thing for temperate zone trees. ELms require dormancy, although some Chinese elm varieties may be somewhat subtropical and may be an exception. The elm species you've chosen is hardy to zone 5--which means subtropical it's not. Your lighting set up is complicated by all of this---Dormancy is triggered by shortening daylengths--beginning at the summer solstice in June as daylength begins to shorten and active growth shifts to preparations for winter. That shortened daylength continues past leaf drop in the autumn reinforced by colder and colder ground. They are not tropical species that require 12 hours of sunlight. Providing lighting more suitable for a tropical plant and ignoring their dormancy requirements will wear them out. May take a while, elms are tough.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Um, err, lighting is not a constant thing for temperate zone trees. ELms require dormancy, although some Chinese elm varieties may be somewhat subtropical and may be an exception. The elm species you've chosen is hardy to zone 5--which means subtropical it's not. Your lighting set up is complicated by all of this---Dormancy is triggered by shortening daylengths--beginning at the summer solstice in June as daylength begins to shorten and active growth shifts to preparations for winter. That shortened daylength continues past leaf drop in the autumn reinforced by colder and colder ground. They are not tropical species that require 12 hours of sunlight. Providing lighting more suitable for a tropical plant and ignoring their dormancy requirements will wear them out. May take a while, elms are tough.

I'm finding some different material online stating that these trees can be "acclimated" to not have a dormancy period, and can go a few years without one for rest. I'm sure I should take that info with a grain of salt. I'm thinking if I can manage to get a good understanding of how to water them correctly and do a good job unpotting and replanting them, I could possibly get a few years out of these trees. At that point I will buy a ficus species and replant the plaudarium which shouldn't be too difficult. I've already accepted that these trees will not be a long term habitat of my plaudarium. The newts will live almost 20 years in captivity, so they will most certainly outlive these trees. Not sure how keeping the trees small will affect things as well, since they will always need to stay under a certain height to fit inside the paludarium, their growth will need to be capped at one point or another. I get bored with my setups easily anyways, so perhaps maybe it's a good thing that at one point or another I will have a good reason to put a different tree species in there.

 

[ShadyStump]

So I just combed through some aquarium forums to try and find someone that used a PAR meter on my specific light. Keep in mind this was measured inside the tank (with water) so im not sure if the PAR rating is at all affected when filtered through a body of water. The readings are at 10 cm (approx 3-4 inches) the PAR rating is 340. At 20cm (approx 7 inches) the PAR rating is 194 and at 30cm (approx 11 inches) it is 138. So the PAR rating for this light where I have it positioned is around 340 unless the PAR rating is very different value when filtered through water (I think without water the PAR is actually a bit higher). Another thread on this forum suggest sun loving plants need something above 90 PAR (as a minimum value). So using that data as a reference, this light should in theory be somewhat sufficient for the trees. I found a nifty PAR meter app that is still in beta so it's accuracy is TBD although some reviews tested against a control and said it was fairly accurate, so I'm going to test it out when I get home and see what that tells me also. It uses your phones front facing camera, the newer and higher tech the phone the better it will read (I have a Samsung s21 so should be pretty good).

So it seems like you're on the right track. Again, no expert on lights, but I know PAR values can be misleading in either direction. PAR is essentially just a measure of how many photons are coming out of the light, not how useful they are to photosynthesis, or how anything else that could be important factors. It's not an awful place to start, but not the final word.
Oh, and yes, water can make a massive difference in light quality, especially in the red ranges.

I'm finding some different material online stating that these trees can be "acclimated" to not have a dormancy period, and can go a few years without one for rest. I'm sure I should take that info with a grain of salt. I'm thinking if I can manage to get a good understanding of how to water them correctly and do a good job unpotting and replanting them, I could possibly get a few years out of these trees. At that point I will buy a ficus species and replant the plaudarium which shouldn't be too difficult. I've already accepted that these trees will not be a long term habitat of my plaudarium. The newts will live almost 20 years in captivity, so they will most certainly outlive these trees. Not sure how keeping the trees small will affect things as well, since they will always need to stay under a certain height to fit inside the paludarium, their growth will need to be capped at one point or another. I get bored with my setups easily anyways, so perhaps maybe it's a good thing that at one point or another I will have a good reason to put a different tree species in there.

I'm inclined to agree, they won't last forever without a dormancy period, but they should last several years at least.
I assumed from the get go that these would be essentially running amuck freely in the paludarium. That can actually help with the survival of the trees, allowing them to find whichever way they can to survive. Many of the techniques and processes used in traditional bonsai practice induce allot of stress on the tree, usually intentional as a means to keep the trees miniaturized. You'll have more wiggle room here if you're letting them go a little more wild. However, for aesthetics you'll find yourself learning and applying real bonsai concepts eventually.
If you want a more controlled environment for the trees, you can check out some of the threads here on forest plantings. In this case you'd just plant all the trees on one big slab that would sit on a platform in your setup. You could pull the slab out, and swap it for any other that fits. Another option is trees in individual containers made of cement or the like in a way to mimic rocks. The containers could then be further disguised with rocks, moss, or vegetation.

Back on the fertilizer issue, decent drainage can be a big part of any containerized plants, so there really isn't much choice than avoiding fertilizing, unless you can custom build your paludarium with a platform/section that lets the trees drain into a completely separate chamber.
But still, starting with soil that includes some rich compost will provide nutrients enough for several trees for a long time, but shouldn't negatively effect your water quality. You'll still have to replenish nutrients somehow over time, but not terribly frequently. Every year or so depending on how you find the trees grow.

 

[Glaucus]

So it seems like you're on the right track. Again, no expert on lights, but I know PAR values can be misleading in either direction. PAR is essentially just a measure of how many photons are coming out of the light, not how useful they are to photosynthesis, or how anything else that could be important factors. It's not an awful place to start, but not the final word.
Oh, and yes, water can make a massive difference in light quality, especially in the red ranges.

PAR means 'Photosynthetically Active Radiation'. So what you say here is just not correct. If you know you are not an expert, why just say something that is wrong?
If a 'PAR value' is given, you need to know the units they use, because there is some confusion in how the terms are used.

 

[Glaucus]

So I just combed through some aquarium forums to try and find someone that used a PAR meter on my specific light. Keep in mind this was measured inside the tank (with water) so im not sure if the PAR rating is at all affected when filtered through a body of water. The readings are at 10 cm (approx 3-4 inches) the PAR rating is 340. At 20cm (approx 7 inches) the PAR rating is 194 and at 30cm (approx 11 inches) it is 138. So the PAR rating for this light where I have it positioned is around 340 unless the PAR rating is very different value when filtered through water (I think without water the PAR is actually a bit higher). Another thread on this forum suggest sun loving plants need something above 90 PAR (as a minimum value). So using that data as a reference, this light should in theory be somewhat sufficient for the trees. I found a nifty PAR meter app that is still in beta so it's accuracy is TBD although some reviews tested against a control and said it was fairly accurate, so I'm going to test it out when I get home and see what that tells me also. It uses your phones front facing camera, the newer and higher tech the phone the better it will read (I have a Samsung s21 so should be pretty good).

Not sure how the values are measured in terms of 'filtered through a body of water'. Water is quite transparent to visible light (but not to IR or UV). Just a few cm of water does not block any significant amount of PAR. Unless the water is turbid.

As for 'sun loving plants need something above 90 PAR'. What does that mean? There are no units.

What plants require is a daily light integral, DLI which is usually given in moles of photons per square meter per day. This is the light a plant needs each day. The optimum DLI for a tomato plant is sometimes given at 30 moles/m2/day. So if you have a light turned on for 12 hours a day, you need a PPFD of 695 umoles/m2/second. So if you sum that value for each second for 12 hours total, you get the DLI of 30 moles/m2/day.

Say you have a plant that needs half of what a tomato plant needs in your paludarium. And say your paludarium is 1/4th of a square meter (say 50 cm by 50cm). Then you need a DLI of 15, which means a PPFD of 347.5 umol/m2/second. So how many photons do you need for your paludarium per second? Since you have only 25% of a square meter, you only need 87 umoles per second (which you can call PPF, which might be your 90 PAR). Note, if you raise a light up higher, you get a lower PPFD over a larger area. And in reality you will have a hot spit right below the lamp.

Say you have some LED light bulb that is perfectly able to project all photons in that 50cm by 50cm area. So now you can go from PPF to watts. Say your light bulb has an efficiency of 1.2 PPF per watt (umol/j). That then means you need a 70 watt light.

There are also calculators out there that can estimate PPF or PPFD values when you put in the lumen values, the type of light (LED, fluorescent bulb), and the colour temperature. And that will give an estimate.

That said, normal aquaruium lights would be good enough for a paludarium, I would say. You probably shouldn't put plants in a paludarium that have a high DLI. Better have something that is similar to lettuce rather than tomato. Tree species generally have a higher DLI. Plants that grow in the full sun, like basically every tree species, usually have DLIs that go up to 30 moles/m2/day for optimum conditions. But 15 moles/m2/day may be enough for many. Trees grow fine in very cloudy climates. And a seedling can grow in the shade. The DLI values of trees are not known, as they are not crops and no one is interested in measuring it. And, it would be tricky to find the DLI of a mature 50 year old elm.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Not sure how the values are measured in terms of 'filtered through a body of water'. Water is quite transparent to visible light (but not to IR or UV). Just a few cm of water does not block any significant amount of PAR. Unless the water is turbid.

As for 'sun loving plants need something above 90 PAR'. What does that mean? There are no units.

What plants require is a daily light integral, DLI which is usually given in moles of photons per square meter per day. This is the light a plant needs each day. The optimum DLI for a tomato plant is sometimes given at 30 moles/m2/day. So if you have a light turned on for 12 hours a day, you need a PPFD of 695 umoles/m2/second. So if you sum that value for each second for 12 hours total, you get the DLI of 30 moles/m2/day.

Say you have a plant that needs half of what a tomato plant needs in your paludarium. And say your paludarium is 1/4th of a square meter (say 50 cm by 50cm). Then you need a DLI of 15, which means a PPFD of 347.5 umol/m2/second. So how many photons do you need for your paludarium per second? Since you have only 25% of a square meter, you only need 87 umoles per second (which you can call PPF, which might be your 90 PAR). Note, if you raise a light up higher, you get a lower PPFD over a larger area. And in reality you will have a hot spit right below the lamp.

Say you have some LED light bulb that is perfectly able to project all photons in that 50cm by 50cm area. So now you can go from PPF to watts. Say your light bulb has an efficiency of 1.2 PPF per watt (umol/j). That then means you need a 70 watt light.

There are also calculators out there that can estimate PPF or PPFD values when you put in the lumen values, the type of light (LED, fluorescent bulb), and the colour temperature. And that will give an estimate.

That said, normal aquaruium lights would be good enough for a paludarium, I would say. You probably shouldn't put plants in a paludarium that have a high DLI. Better have something that is similar to lettuce rather than tomato. Tree species generally have a higher DLI. Plants that grow in the full sun, like basically every tree species, usually have DLIs that go up to 30 moles/m2/day for optimum conditions. But 15 moles/m2/day may be enough for many. Trees grow fine in very cloudy climates. And a seedling can grow in the shade. The DLI values of trees are not known, as they are not crops and no one is interested in measuring it. And, it would be tricky to find the DLI of a mature 50 year old elm.

Thank you for clarifying that! I'm no expert on measuring lights. Maybe some more info will help you give advice on whether or not my light is sufficient (I know you cannot get a scientific answer on whether or not a specific light will be exactly what a certain plant needs to grow) but the light is 36 inches long and so is the paludarium (36 long, 18 deep, 24 high), so the light will be evenly stretched across the whole planting area. You already know the PAR rating (approx 348) lumens 3750lm and it's 60 watts. I don't know if you need any other measurements to calculate whether or not this should support my elms. (I'm bad at math)

 

[Glaucus]

What is the units of your PAR ratings. It is like me saying that my yacht is 100 long. I need to know if it is 100 meters long. Or 100 feet.

 

[Aquaticjade]

I

So it seems like you're on the right track. Again, no expert on lights, but I know PAR values can be misleading in either direction. PAR is essentially just a measure of how many photons are coming out of the light, not how useful they are to photosynthesis, or how anything else that could be important factors. It's not an awful place to start, but not the final word.
Oh, and yes, water can make a massive difference in light quality, especially in the red ranges.


I'm inclined to agree, they won't last forever without a dormancy period, but they should last several years at least.
I assumed from the get go that these would be essentially running amuck freely in the paludarium. That can actually help with the survival of the trees, allowing them to find whichever way they can to survive. Many of the techniques and processes used in traditional bonsai practice induce allot of stress on the tree, usually intentional as a means to keep the trees miniaturized. You'll have more wiggle room here if you're letting them go a little more wild. However, for aesthetics you'll find yourself learning and applying real bonsai concepts eventually.
If you want a more controlled environment for the trees, you can check out some of the threads here on forest plantings. In this case you'd just plant all the trees on one big slab that would sit on a platform in your setup. You could pull the slab out, and swap it for any other that fits. Another option is trees in individual containers made of cement or the like in a way to mimic rocks. The containers could then be further disguised with rocks, moss, or vegetation.

Back on the fertilizer issue, decent drainage can be a big part of any containerized plants, so there really isn't much choice than avoiding fertilizing, unless you can custom build your paludarium with a platform/section that lets the trees drain into a completely separate chamber.
But still, starting with soil that includes some rich compost will provide nutrients enough for several trees for a long time, but shouldn't negatively effect your water quality. You'll still have to replenish nutrients somehow over time, but not terribly frequently. Every year or so depending on how you find the trees grow.

I think I will just let the roots have free reign. They will half about half the footprint of the paludariums worth of akadama and crushed lava stone to grow through. At one point or another I'm not sure if they will even need to be watered once roots hit the water table. I could do a mix of akadama and pumice for their planting substrate if you think that would add any nutrients for them. I could also mix in some peat but would rather not because it would lower my already low pH. Theres a possibility if I tossed the ferts in on the very upmost layer of akadama, there's not too much of a chance of it leeching down far enough to affect water parameters....but with $500 worth of newts I dont feel comfortable shooting that shot lol.

 

[Aquaticjade]

What is the units of your PAR ratings. It is like me saying that my yacht is 100 long. I need to know if it is 100 meters long. Or 100 feet.

Truthfully I'm not sure. I found a thread on UK planted tank forums where a guy and his buddy set up a measuring test for a variety of aquarium LED lights and made data tables for each to compare. Here's the table for my light, I'm assuming there is a basic unit of measurement with PAR ratings (like when you take a measurement with a PAR meter) but again, I'm not savvy enough to know the name of the unit.

 

[Glaucus]

I think your light will offer between 50 and 100 umol/s PPF. So if your area is approx 0.4 meter squared. So you would have about 100 to 200 umol/m2/s PPFD in your area, if the light spreads out very evenly (which no light really does, even LED strips). If you turn on the lights 19 hours a day, the DLI is about 6 to 14 mol/m2/d. I think that will be good for medium light plants. It will be on the low side for plants that love growing in the full sun. Even with 19 hours a day. So your light is not so bright. I guess you don't put very bright lights on an aquarium or paludarium.

Not sure what that means in relationship for your elms. But you need to do what is best for the newts anyway. I think if you put lights bright enough to grow say tomatos, your newts would be very very unhappy. It would be like sitting in the bright sun all day (but not completely because the LED spectrum will have less UV and IR than natural sunlight).

 

[Aquaticjade]

I think your light will offer between 50 and 100 umol/s PPF. So if your area is approx 0.4 meter squared. So you would have about 100 to 200 umol/m2/s PPFD in your area, if the light spreads out very evenly (which no light really does, even LED strips). If you turn on the lights 19 hours a day, the DLI is about 6 to 14 mol/m2/d. I think that will be good for medium light plants. It will be on the low side for plants that love growing in the full sun. Even with 19 hours a day. So your light is not so bright. I guess you don't put very bright lights on an aquarium or paludarium.

Not sure what that means in relationship for your elms. But you need to do what is best for the newts anyway. I think if you put lights bright enough to grow say tomatos, your newts would be very very unhappy. It would be like sitting in the bright sun all day.

Thank you so much, your advice is very informative! Fortunately this species is somewhat "nocturnal" in nature where they spend almost all hours of daylight chilling in plants or hiding under rocks. They really only come out at night to hunt for food. They are the most skittish species I've kept. So, brightness of light isn't too much of a factor to them considering I will be building tons of rockwork/caves into the palu for them to hide in. The duration of the lights however, will probably become a persistent issue for the trees later down the line. Right now I can crank the photoperiod to 16 hours on, but when the newts are present I'd have to dial it back to 12 on 12 off.

 

[Glaucus]

I think I would try to put in azaleas. They do well in high humidity, they can be subtropical (Belgian indica/R.simsii), they have root systems that allow them to grow on rocks with little soil, and they usually prefer growing in partial shade. I think for the Belgian indicas, they may not need a dormancy period to prevent exhausting themselves because of eternal summer.
But I am sure you have more options.

 

[Aquaticjade]

I think I would try to put in azaleas. They do well in high humidity, they can be subtropical (Belgian indica/R.simsii), they have root systems that allow them to grow on rocks with little soil, and they usually prefer growing in partial shade. I think for the Belgian indicas, they may not need a dormancy period to prevent exhausting themselves because of eternal summer.
But I am sure you have more options.

That's a good suggestion. I'm stuck with the elms for now and have no other use for them other than for my paludarium project, I bought them as a rookie mistake thinking they were indoor/outdoor trees. I'm going to grow them as best I can for however many years they last for me indoors. At that point I will get a better suited species, perhaps a ficus. The paludarium will be low humidity as far as paludariums go, since it will have a mesh lid not a glass or acrylic one like my other paludarium. I'm trying to do more of a "temperate" setup as opposed to a more common tropical setup. I did however find an LED grow light online, claims the PAR rating at 12 inches distance to be 1132 umol m-2 s-1 (I believe umol m-2 s-1 is the unit of measurement for PAR ratings like the 348 my current light has) which seems to be perfect for the elms but im not sure how I would rig them up to hang since my boyfriend probably wouldn't appreciate me screwing anchors to the ceiling lol! That and my aquarium light was about $250, I'd hate render it useless.

 

[Aquaticjade]

By the way I know this is off topic and unrelated to this forum (mods please forgive me) but for those who are interested, here's the little babies that this whole build is for:

 

[Glaucus]

Ah, your light may be a higher end LED light then as $250 is pretty expensive. So lets take the numbers from that table. Say you put it at 10 inches and then you have a good area with an average PPFD (PAR in table) of 340 umol m-2 s-1. Then with 12 hours, you get a DLI of 14.6 moles/m2/day. That would be a pretty good light level for at least some decent growth.

For the final setup, your paludarium is 24 inch high. Let's say at that height the PPFD is 166 umol m-2 s-1. Then the DLI with 12 hour/day light period is 7.2 moles/m2/day. That DLI would be nice for shade loving plants like ficus. My guess is it would be too low for elms. Maybe enough for azaleas.

So if you use that light now and hang it at 10 inches, probably good for your elms. That said, providing light is the easy part of growing indoors.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Ah, your light may be a higher end LED light then as $250 is pretty expensive. So lets take the numbers from that table. Say you put it at 10 inches and then you have a good area with an average PPFD (PAR in table) of 340 umol m-2 s-1. Then with 12 hours, you get a DLI of 14.6 moles/m2/day. That would be a pretty good light level for at least some decent growth.

For the final setup, your paludarium is 24 inch high. Let's say at that height the PPFD is 166 umol m-2 s-1. Then the DLI with 12 hour/day light period is 7.2 moles/m2/day. That DLI would be nice for shade loving plants like ficus. My guess is it would be too low for elms. Maybe enough for azaleas.

So if you use that light now and hang it at 10 inches, probably good for your elms. That said, providing light is the easy part of growing indoors.

Thank you for running the numbers. The elms will be situated up towards the middle of the paludarium height, so I'd say they will be about the same distance from the light as they are now. The only changing factor in the light will be cutting the photoperiod by 4 hours

 

[Bonsaiscaper]

Beautiful! I like your wabi kusa wall. For your emersed growth on the water line, are you using wabi kusa balls? The light I'm using is a twinstar ea, so the second to highest powered twinstar they offer. But these trees apparently need much stronger lighting than even the highest demanding aquarium plants. Hard to believe the twinstar isn't enough juice! But the members here say still not a high enough PAR rating for these trees in particular. I think these elms can survive a few years as evergreens with no dormancy, but as for an entire lifespan, it's not looking so. Seems the goal now is just to ride these out for however long I can, and plan on having to replant the paludarium with a ficus species some time later down the line.

Yes, I used the wabi kusa balls for the emersed portions, I found that regular sphagnum moss ball works as well. I think many people really get hung up on PAR reading, and there’s always constant debate whether a particular light/PAR reading will be the best , but also those are the people with aesthetically questionable-looking tanks anyway hahaha. Your Twinstar might work, I used to have one and they are not bad! PAR reading for aquarium light is measured with water. Without water, your PAR reading can be higher. If we are talking about a 20yrs old plus tree, it’s reasonable to believe the tree will perish when the condition change drastically. On the other, if the tree is young enough to adapt to the new living condition, it might be possible. It might not be a 10’ tall, world championship tree, but it might be able to thrive within a confined environment. One thing I would also consider is to simply look at your livestocks. If everything grows and seems happy, maybe it is working (?). If things start to change visually, you will know.