Newbie--help me with my indoor grow setup please!

[_#1_]

People have been growing trees inside for decades.

I would like to see your none chinese elm, dawn redwood and juniper and pine from your indoor setup please lol.

Indoors growing is actually really simple I agree. Just delete your roof lol

 

[ShadyStump]

Not too sure how this is still a matter for conversation. THE LADY ISN'T DOING BONSAI.
Everything we would be doing to a tree that would create additional stress on the trees, she isn't doing.
No, wiring, no tiny restrictive pots, no constant cutting or pruning, no leaf shrinking, no nothing.
She is doing bonsai only in the context that she will have containerized trees. All other stressors we're concerned with are eliminated, giving her much more wiggle room.

I foresee her losing a good number of her trees- and we can help her replace them- but she won't lose all of them. There will be an elm left at the end of this, and it will be quite an achievement, and I'm looking forward to watching it.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Just an update: the trees are starting to grow tons of little buds everywhere on the lower bare branches where most of the leaves fell off during shipping.


However for some reason one tree in the corner of the tub just won't keep any water. I've had to water it almost every day and somehow the next day the soil is bone dry again. This is the only tree where all its leaves are yellow and withering not sure how 5 pots of soil on the same tub can remain moist, but this guy is always bone dry.

 

[Tums]

If it's just the regular organic/peaty potting soil, they can become hydrophobic/difficult to rewet if they dry out. Can you take it out and really soak it for a while?

 

[Aquaticjade]

If it's just the regular organic/peaty potting soil, they can become hydrophobic/difficult to rewet if they dry out. Can you take it out and really soak it for a while?

Yes! How should I go about soaking it?

 

[_#1_]

Not too sure how this is still a matter for conversation. THE LADY ISN'T DOING BONSAI.
Everything we would be doing to a tree that would create additional stress on the trees, she isn't doing.
No, wiring, no tiny restrictive pots, no constant cutting or pruning, no leaf shrinking, no nothing.
She is doing bonsai only in the context that she will have containerized trees. All other stressors we're concerned with are eliminated, giving her much more wiggle room.

No, the conversation turned into growing outdoor trees indoors in general.

While may or may not be a bonsai technique, the elms WILL have to be pruned to fit the particular space, unless that space is the entire room.

However for some reason one tree in the corner of the tub just won't keep any water. I've had to water it almost every day and somehow the next day the soil is bone dry again. This is the only tree where all its leaves are yellow and withering not sure how 5 pots of soil on the same tub can remain moist, but this guy is always bone dry.

I agree with Tums. Could be soil is hydrophobic. Soil dried to the point water slides over and off it. Maybe the leaves an indication it hasn't seen water for awhile.

I would put that tree in a tub of water to the brim of the pot and leave it there for 10-20 minutes to rehydrate the soil and tree.

 

[Aquaticjade]

No, the conversation turned into growing outdoor trees indoors in general.

While may or may not be a bonsai technique, the elms WILL have to be pruned to fit the particular space, unless that space is the entire room.

I agree with Tums. Could be soil is hydrophobic. Soil dried to the point water slides over and off it. Maybe the leaves an indication it hasn't seen water for awhile.

I would put that tree in a tub of water to the brim of the pot and leave it there for 10-20 minutes to rehydrate the soil and tree.

I'm soaking the little baby in my sink as we speak. That's definitely what happened, when I tried to water it before the water would bead and run off until the soil started to dampen. I was actually thinking about when I can prune some of these branches and how. They came in rather leggy to begin with, I'd like to compact them slightly, but I want them to look like natural trees so I wouldn't be doing much but clipping a few branches back. Any advice on when this would be a good idea? In November before planting them perhaps?

 

[_#1_]

I would wait till they are actively growing new leaves. Buds looks plump so maybe soon if you want. But I would let them grow freely for now though to gain health, that's just me being cautious.

They seem to be spaced out well atm. Not shading each other out so no trimming necessary. IMO anyways lol

I wish people with more knowledge with trees, elm specifically, would chime in.

 

[Aquaticjade]

I would wait till they are actively growing new leaves. Buds looks plump so maybe soon if you want. But I would let them grow freely for now though to gain health, that's just me being cautious.

They seem to be spaced out well atm. Not shading each other out so no trimming necessary. IMO anyways lol

I wish people with more knowledge with trees, elm specifically, would chime in.

That makes sense! I've noticed some tiny baby leaves sprouting on pretty much all 6. I soaked all of them in the sink, because I realized that pretty much all the soil seemed to repel the water when I would water them but I didn't realize that's why. Figured I'll give them all a nice soak, let them air out for a day or two and start fresh in regards to the watering. They seem to need to be watered almost daily, so I suppose that's a good sign they are making good use of the light? I also removed all the pebbles so they are bare bottom in their container. I dropped the light down as far as I could and the desk fan should be delivered in the next hour or so and I will set that up so they get constant ventilation. Once I'm out of quarantine I'll take the other members lovely suggestion and get a laundry hamper to replace the tub with.

 

[rockm]

Not too sure how this is still a matter for conversation. THE LADY ISN'T DOING BONSAI.
Everything we would be doing to a tree that would create additional stress on the trees, she isn't doing.
No, wiring, no tiny restrictive pots, no constant cutting or pruning, no leaf shrinking, no nothing.
She is doing bonsai only in the context that she will have containerized trees. All other stressors we're concerned with are eliminated, giving her much more wiggle room.

I foresee her losing a good number of her trees- and we can help her replace them- but she won't lose all of them. There will be an elm left at the end of this, and it will be quite an achievement, and I'm looking forward to watching it.

None of this is true. She's growing the plants in a container (they have almost no room to throw roots), they are temperate zone trees which will not survive inside and are stressed with inadequate light, tropical humidity that is accelerating root issues (which is admittedly the opposite of what most indoor bonsai face). The biggest issue here is the type of trees she's chosen--if these were ficus, schefflera, tropical species, they would stand a much larger chance of surviving. She has chosen this species apparently out of an assumption that most beginning bonsai people make--that temperate zone species can be grown indoors successfully because the site they buy them from "says so." It simply ain't so. She will lose all of these elms within six to nine months, or at least have significant issues with them--she's already got some issue.

FWIW, I've been growing elms as bonsai for over 25 years now. From Chinese (many different varieties, including catlin, seiju and others), to American elm to slippery elm and cedar elm. I began with Chinese elm because the seller said it was "indoor/outdoor." It was outdoor...Elms are tough species. They can survive any number of insults --overwatering, fungal infections, scale, spide mites OUTSIDE. Inside they weaken, decline and die. New growth is no indication of survival. It is the tree resetting itself in an attempt to adapt. It may take a month or two, but don't get attached to the new growth...

 

[ShadyStump]

Fair.
So, in 25 years what was the one thing that seemed too ridiculous to try?
We'll do that too.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Jeeze.....I thought people on the aquarium forums were cutthroat. My friends, I think at this point continuously stating the obvious that these are outdoor trees and don't have a good chance of surviving long term isn't helpful. WE ALL KNOW THIS. Please stop blowing up the thread with "this won't work" because again WE KNOW. You are not going to stop me from trying. That is unless you want to trade my 6 elms for 6 ficus you may have? If you aren't here to help me give these trees a chance of working, then feel free not to comment. Spouting off the same fact like a record player isn't going to convince me to put the trees outside. They would be the same waste of my money outside than shriveled up in my trash can. I appreciate everyone's input, even those that are quite brash. Nonetheless I think some helpful members have shifted their focus on just helping me take a shot in the dark. Like a lot of things in life, with no other options that's all we can do.

 

[Aquaticjade]

None of this is true. She's growing the plants in a container (they have almost no room to throw roots), they are temperate zone trees which will not survive inside and are stressed with inadequate light, tropical humidity that is accelerating root issues (which is admittedly the opposite of what most indoor bonsai face). The biggest issue here is the type of trees she's chosen--if these were ficus, schefflera, tropical species, they would stand a much larger chance of surviving. She has chosen this species apparently out of an assumption that most beginning bonsai people make--that temperate zone species can be grown indoors successfully because the site they buy them from "says so." It simply ain't so. She will lose all of these elms within six to nine months, or at least have significant issues with them--she's already got some issue.

FWIW, I've been growing elms as bonsai for over 25 years now. From Chinese (many different varieties, including catlin, seiju and others), to American elm to slippery elm and cedar elm. I began with Chinese elm because the seller said it was "indoor/outdoor." It was outdoor...Elms are tough species. They can survive any number of insults --overwatering, fungal infections, scale, spide mites OUTSIDE. Inside they weaken, decline and die. New growth is no indication of survival. It is the tree resetting itself in an attempt to adapt. It may take a month or two, but don't get attached to the new growth...

I should point out that they won't be in pots for very long.....eventually they will have a good footprint of a paludarium to grow roots. Also humidity is going to be a non issue because I already removed the pebbles and water and bought a fan to give them constant fresh air. The paludarium will have a screen lid and plenty of ventilation. This will be in no way a tropical setup.

 

[rockm]

 

[ShadyStump]

And it'll be equally as impressive if it works!

 

[HorseloverFat]

You can make indoor setups for trops and wintering certain species... just have to have enough, spectrum-satisfying lights, being conscious of lighting ANGLES and bouncing light, provide at LEAST 16 hours pf light (More is better, especially if using ONLY lamps) in the daily cycle, provide constant air flow to AND AROUND your plants/containers, paying attention to Fresh air circulation, and humidity is closely monitored.

Orienting your room AROUND a South-Facing window alleviates SOME/a good portion(depending on your needs) of your necessary lighting.

Air-flow is everything... a decent breeze, and lights hung real low have worked well for me.

(Alot of this has probably been said... I did not read much past the first couple posts before replying)

Didn’t wanna get ‘stracted.

 

[Aquaticjade]

You can make indoor setups for trops and wintering certain species... just have to have enough, spectrum-satisfying lights, being conscious of lighting ANGLES and bouncing light, provide at LEAST 16 hours pf light (More is better, especially if using ONLY lamps) in the daily cycle, provide constant air flow to AND AROUND your plants/containers, paying attention to Fresh air circulation, and humidity is closely monitored.

Orienting your room AROUND a South-Facing window alleviates SOME/a good portion(depending on your needs) of your necessary lighting.

Air-flow is everything... a decent breeze, and lights hung real low have worked well for me.

(Alot of this has probably been said... I did not read much past the first couple posts before replying)

Didn’t wanna get ‘stracted.

Thank you! So much helpful info in one comment. I did set up a desk fan running 24/7 to provide air flow. I have it set to a very soft breeze currently. I'm using a RGB-W LED that is made for high demand aquatic plants. Other users have pointed out that this light output is still rather low for the requirements of my elm. The light was already almost $250... so I'm trying to float the trees with what I have but I'm not really sure how to tell the different signs of different deficiencies. I'm well versed in aquatic plants and could tell you the difference between a potassium or iron deficiency but as for trees I haven't the slightest clue. I'm not sure if the leaves will do different things depending on not having enough light, too much water, etc. So this is definitely already a long shot of a chance as it is....doubled with me being a complete noob so I really appreciate any advice.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Plant lights can be much cheaper than that.... I end up paying in between 40-120 for a new lanp. (Many factors depending” For 250.. you could get several lights.

 

[Glaucus]

I don't know why this blew up so much.

Plants need certain growing conditions. Whether these conditions are outside or inside does not really matter. It can just be really hard to get some of these conditions to be present inside.
If a plant requires seasonality, then for indoors that is extremely hard. You cannot really cool a room down to simulate winter.

First point would be to pick a (sub)tropical species that does not care about eternal summer.
Second issue is light. The indoor light intensity we as humans prefer when it is dark is really a fraction of the brightness of outdoor light. Having a room with outdoor brightness (or clear summer day PPFD) is going to be extremely bright. But this could be done. And you can also compensate in some cases with less bright but longer days. Unless the plants are shade loving plants, you need lights about as bright as required by a coral reef tank.
Third is humidity. Indoor humidity is lower than outdoors. But if you set up an aquarium or maybe a paludarium, then I guess that would increase humidity. You can always make an enclosure or tent or covered glass bowl/tank/cuboid.
Fourth would probably be ventilation. Indoor air is stale, and for some plant species this causes problems. This is true for many of our outdoor bonsai subjects. But many house plants and plants ideal for a paludarium wouldn't care about this at all. And if needed, ventilation might be added.

So the question is then if these Ulmus × hollandica 'Jacqueline Hillier' are the ideal plants for your paludarium. So far, it doesn't sound like they are the perfect candidate. Might they thrive for at least a while? Maybe. But it seems that no one here knows how to achieve this indoors.


I think it would make much more sense to set up the paladarium, get some bright full spectrum lights for those, and then put whatever species you want to grow in your paludarium inside the paludarium itself right away. I didn't read the entire thread, but I am a bit confused as to why you are growing these elms in pots indoors rather than inside the paludarium.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Thank you! So much helpful info in one comment. I did set up a desk fan running 24/7 to provide air flow. I have it set to a very soft breeze currently. I'm using a RGB-W LED that is made for high demand aquatic plants. Other users have pointed out that this light output is still rather low for the requirements of my elm. The light was already almost $250... so I'm trying to float the trees with what I have but I'm not really sure how to tell the different signs of different deficiencies. I'm well versed in aquatic plants and could tell you the difference between a potassium or iron deficiency but as for trees I haven't the slightest clue. I'm not sure if the leaves will do different things depending on not having enough light, too much water, etc. So this is definitely already a long shot of a chance as it is....doubled with me being a complete noob so I really appreciate any advice.

Your deficiencies will look similar.

Also.. if using lamps.. its the light over TIME that is important also..

I run my room at a rough 19/5