Newbie--help me with my indoor grow setup please!

[Aquaticjade]

First off, sorry for the late reply as I'm currently battling covid from home so I've been pretty out of it for the last 2 days. I'm happy to see so many replies! I need all the help I can get. Some points to address. I am a female LOL but no one offended me...just wanted to let that be known secondly, they are NOT Chinese elm and that's what I was trying to reiterate from the beginning of the thread! Eastern leaf absolutely does claim these to be capable of indoor growth, but then you were all telling me in no way is that possible and that's why I was getting upset (I was being misunderstood on the forum and thought I got screwed over by Eastern leaf). I'm glad to hear there is a shred of hope, I was getting frustrated because I thought I just threw $140 down the drain.

So, to clarify some points I've noticed some people missed in my original post, I have no use or desire for these to be outdoors unfortunately. It was never my original intention. I have no desire for these to be bonsai. In November these will be completely removed from pots altogether, and planted in straight akadama soil with moss on top in a 36 long 18 deep 24 high paludarium for my rare kaiser newts. I thought I was making a good choice on a tree for this setup after doing as much research as was available to me on this particular elm and from what I understood from what I read they didn't need a dedicated winter rest but I could be mistaken because again....zero prior experience here. If I had it my way I would have used oak (because in the wild these newts hail from streams in Oak and pistachio forests in the mountains of iran). I knew better than to try to use oak indoors, at least. I'm stuck with trying to make these work indoors. If they die then I guess I will need everyone's solid advice and artistic opinion on a new species to try. Doesn't even need to be a tree, but plants that look like mini trees would work?

I'm glad to hear my lighting isn't causing the leaves to turn brown. Like I said, they dropped some leaves during shipping and were in a cardboard box for about 5-6 days. Today is day 5 with them. I've tried using a chopstick but am still having a hard time telling when they need water

What I'm taking from the advice is first thing I should do to correct the setup is to maybe put them on a shallow baking sheet as the new "humidity tray" so they can ventilate more and possibly get a small low powered desk fan to place on them? Is 8 hours a long enough photoperiod for them or should I set the timer to 10? I bought them this early in the year because I knew if I waited until November when I was going to set up the newt enclosure they would come with zero leaves since I'm pretty sure large scale sellers like eastern leaf grow them all outdoors.

Edit: the permanent enclosure will be around 70F and they will be planted above a water source. I could also move them to a lower level of my house that's 70F, or my basement which is 66-68F. Should I keep them warm in the attic area, or move them to a more cool location? I don't want them to drop any more leaves.

 

[Paradox]

LMAO so many people calling them Chinese elms despite the fact it was posted repeatedly that they are not Chinese Elms

 

[Aquaticjade]

LMAO so many people calling them Chinese elms despite the fact it was posted repeatedly that they are not Chinese Elms

I felt like people were getting so mad because they thought I was ignoring their advice despite the fact that I was saying "are you SURE you realize that these are a separate species".....at any rate I'm glad that part of the thread is understanding what I'm trying to say and do here now LOL. Now that we have established that the jacqueline hillier can indeed be kept fully indoors.....any advice on my setup or why my trees are yellowing would be great. I just bought a mini desk fan on Amazon which will come Wednesday, I will set it up so there is a very subtle breeze running through the trees. Here's some pictures taken a minute ago when I misted them (I've watered twice, and I mist daily) two of the trees look quite nice, not much yellowing at all, here's a pic of one


The other 5 have varying degrees of yellowing/browning and are still dropping leaves daily. On all of them I can see at least 1-4 new baby leaves that have sprouted however. Here's pictures of some of the other trees and the leaf issues. One tree just has a tiny faint yellowing beginning on the very tips

The others are pretty yellow/brown

 

[Paradox]

I felt like people were getting so mad because they thought I was ignoring their advice despite the fact that I was saying "are you SURE you realize that these are a separate species".....at any rate I'm glad that part of the thread is understanding what I'm trying to say and do here now LOL. Now that we have established that the jacqueline hillier can indeed be kept fully indoors.....any advice on my setup or why my trees are yellowing would be great. I just bought a mini desk fan on Amazon which will come Wednesday, I will set it up so there is a very subtle breeze running through the trees. Here's some pictures taken a minute ago when I misted them (I've watered twice, and I mist daily) two of the trees look quite nice, not much yellowing at all, here's a pic of one


The other 5 have varying degrees of yellowing/browning and are still dropping leaves daily. On all of them I can see at least 1-4 new baby leaves that have sprouted however. Here's pictures of some of the other trees and the leaf issues. One tree just has a tiny faint yellowing beginning on the very tips

The others are pretty yellow/brown

No, people werent getting mad. We are just unfamiliar with this cultivar of elm.

I am unsure of why your trees are having their leaves turn yellow and drop.
You stated you were having a hard time telling with the chopstick if they were getting enough water or not?
How are you using the chopstick?

The leaves look wet. I would be careful with the amount of humidity they are getting. That alone could cause the leaves to turn yellow.
Also if the soil is too wet, they might not like that either and it could cause problems. You might want to carefully consider how you are going to set up their enclosure if the do require a lot of humidity. Elms might not do so well if they are too wet

This newt you are trying to create a habitat for. Do they require a lot of humidity?

 

[rockm]

I felt like people were getting so mad because they thought I was ignoring their advice despite the fact that I was saying "are you SURE you realize that these are a separate species".....at any rate I'm glad that part of the thread is understanding what I'm trying to say and do here now LOL. Now that we have established that the jacqueline hillier can indeed be kept fully indoors.....any advice on my setup or why my trees are yellowing would be great. I just bought a mini desk fan on Amazon which will come Wednesday, I will set it up so there is a very subtle breeze running through the trees. Here's some pictures taken a minute ago when I misted them (I've watered twice, and I mist daily) two of the trees look quite nice, not much yellowing at all, here's a pic of one
View attachment 398794

The other 5 have varying degrees of yellowing/browning and are still dropping leaves daily. On all of them I can see at least 1-4 new baby leaves that have sprouted however. Here's pictures of some of the other trees and the leaf issues. One tree just has a tiny faint yellowing beginning on the very tips
View attachment 398795
The others are pretty yellow/brown
View attachment 398796View attachment 398797

These may be a separate species, but they ARE ELMS--jacqueline hillier' dwarf elm. They're not Ulmus parvifolia, but ulmus hollandica "hillier'. Will be very very difficult to grow inside, even with supplemental lighting--which is why you're getting yellowed growth--likely too much water, not enough light. Don't know where it is "established" that Hillier elm will grow indoors...Anyone who says that is likely trying to sell you Hillier elm seedlings...the evidence they don't last very long indoors is right in front of you...While Chinese elm can tough out a winter inside, this species is going to have more difficulty. New leaves indicate the roots are dying off and the plant is trying to overcome that with smaller, less dense growth....

If you just want plants for background for the newts, try plastic aquarium plants. They make extremely realistic varieties of those now. You could also substitute hardier "indoor" tropical species, such as aralia and ficus. Unfortunately your vision for an indoor living micro environment indigenous to Iran? probably requires indoor halide, or high-intensity specialized LED lighting systems, comparable to those used on reef aquarium tanks.

 

[Paradox]

These may be a separate species, but they ARE ELMS--jacqueline hillier' dwarf elm. They're not Ulmus parvifolia, but ulmus hollandica "hillier'. Will be very very difficult to grow inside, even with supplemental lighting--which is why you're getting yellowed growth--likely too much water, not enough light. Don't know where it is "established" that Hillier elm will grow indoors...Anyone who says that is likely trying to sell you Hillier elm seedlings...the evidence they don't last very long indoors is right in front of you...While Chinese elm can tough out a winter inside, this species is going to have more difficulty. New leaves indicate the roots are dying off and the plant is trying to overcome that with smaller, less dense growth....

If you just want plants for background for the newts, try plastic aquarium plants. They make extremely realistic varieties of those now. You could also substitute hardier "indoor" tropical species, such as aralia and ficus. Unfortunately your vision for an indoor living micro environment indigenous to Iran? probably requires indoor halide, or high-intensity specialized LED lighting systems, comparable to those used on reef aquarium tanks.

Not trying to start an argument because I share your skepticism but the Eastern Leaf website states that these can be grown indoors.
The OP stated that and I went to check it out for myself. Eastern Leaf is a pretty reputable place.
Do you think they would state a falsehood on their website? I honestly dont know anything about this cultivar besides what Ive read there

'Jacqueline Hillier' Dwarf Elm

One of our more popular bonsai trees is the 'Jacqueline Hillier' Dwarf Elm Bonsai. The Dwarf Elm Bonsai Tree is a hardy tree. Pruning the Dwarf Elm Bonsai tree will continually produce fresh leaves to any shape you choose. This bonsai can be nurtured and repotted as it grows.

www.easternleaf.com

 

[rockm]

Not trying to start an argument because I share your skepticism but the Eastern Leaf website states that these can be grown indoors.
The OP stated that and I went to check it out for myself. Eastern Leaf is a pretty reputable place.
Do you think they would state a falsehood on their website? I honestly dont know anything about this cultivar besides what Ive read there

'Jacqueline Hillier' Dwarf Elm

One of our more popular bonsai trees is the 'Jacqueline Hillier' Dwarf Elm Bonsai. The Dwarf Elm Bonsai Tree is a hardy tree. Pruning the Dwarf Elm Bonsai tree will continually produce fresh leaves to any shape you choose. This bonsai can be nurtured and repotted as it grows.

www.easternleaf.com

"The Dwarf Elm is very hardy tree that can accommodate indoor and outdoor environments with sufficient natural lighting."
This is carefully written. I don't believe it to be true, and tiptoes along the orderline, just as sellers do with Chinese Elm. Yeah, elms can "accommodate" indoors, but not for long and "sufficient" lighting is a wiggle word.

 

[_#1_]

Just checked out Eastern Leaf myself. This part must have been glossed over.

Quite sure what was meant was indoors as in a greenhouse. Not an attic or basement; or a box inside of a room.

edit: "sufficient natural lighting"

 

[rockm]

Just checked out Eastern Leaf myself. This part must have been glossed over.

Quite sure what was meant was indoors as in a greenhouse. Not an attic or basement; or a box inside of a room.

edit: "sufficient natural lighting"
View attachment 398808

I was going to say that "sufficient natural light" implies "greenhouse" to me...so yeah, if you have a greenhouse, it can be grown inside.

 

[Aquaticjade]

No, people werent getting mad. We are just unfamiliar with this cultivar of elm.

I am unsure of why your trees are having their leaves turn yellow and drop.
You stated you were having a hard time telling with the chopstick if they were getting enough water or not?
How are you using the chopstick?

The leaves look wet. I would be careful with the amount of humidity they are getting. That alone could cause the leaves to turn yellow.
Also if the soil is too wet, they might not like that either and it could cause problems. You might want to carefully consider how you are going to set up their enclosure if the do require a lot of humidity. Elms might not do so well if they are too wet

This newt you are trying to create a habitat for. Do they require a lot of humidity?

The leaves are wet because i just misted them. It is not overly humid in the box. Pretty much typical house humidity with central air. The attic is a tad less dry than the rest of the house. I stuck the chopstick about 3/4inch deep into the soil. Seems damp underneath still. The newts require no humidity, they are mostly aquatic. I want to create an enclosure similar to their natural habitat, I'm not trying to recreate it. They hail from only 4 streams in the entire world and they are all in the zagros mountain range of iran, which is actually more of a temperate area than what people would usually think about when imagining the middle east. They are lovely little creatures and quite a gem in the hobby! I'm an aquarium hobbyist. I have vast experience with aquatic plants, including co2 injection and the like. Not so much with terrestrial plants although i do have a tropical paludarium for my other newts. I actually am using a more expensive higher quality led light on this setup, for those who are curious or want to take time to research to help me. It's a twinstar ea 900.

 

[ShadyStump]

First off, sorry for the late reply as I'm currently battling covid from home so I've been pretty out of it for the last 2 days. I'm happy to see so many replies! I need all the help I can get. Some points to address. I am a female LOL but no one offended me...just wanted to let that be known secondly, they are NOT Chinese elm and that's what I was trying to reiterate from the beginning of the thread! Eastern leaf absolutely does claim these to be capable of indoor growth, but then you were all telling me in no way is that possible and that's why I was getting upset (I was being misunderstood on the forum and thought I got screwed over by Eastern leaf). I'm glad to hear there is a shred of hope, I was getting frustrated because I thought I just threw $140 down the drain.

So, to clarify some points I've noticed some people missed in my original post, I have no use or desire for these to be outdoors unfortunately. It was never my original intention. I have no desire for these to be bonsai. In November these will be completely removed from pots altogether, and planted in straight akadama soil with moss on top in a 36 long 18 deep 24 high paludarium for my rare kaiser newts. I thought I was making a good choice on a tree for this setup after doing as much research as was available to me on this particular elm and from what I understood from what I read they didn't need a dedicated winter rest but I could be mistaken because again....zero prior experience here. If I had it my way I would have used oak (because in the wild these newts hail from streams in Oak and pistachio forests in the mountains of iran). I knew better than to try to use oak indoors, at least. I'm stuck with trying to make these work indoors. If they die then I guess I will need everyone's solid advice and artistic opinion on a new species to try. Doesn't even need to be a tree, but plants that look like mini trees would work?

I'm glad to hear my lighting isn't causing the leaves to turn brown. Like I said, they dropped some leaves during shipping and were in a cardboard box for about 5-6 days. Today is day 5 with them. I've tried using a chopstick but am still having a hard time telling when they need water

What I'm taking from the advice is first thing I should do to correct the setup is to maybe put them on a shallow baking sheet as the new "humidity tray" so they can ventilate more and possibly get a small low powered desk fan to place on them? Is 8 hours a long enough photoperiod for them or should I set the timer to 10? I bought them this early in the year because I knew if I waited until November when I was going to set up the newt enclosure they would come with zero leaves since I'm pretty sure large scale sellers like eastern leaf grow them all outdoors.

Edit: the permanent enclosure will be around 70F and they will be planted above a water source. I could also move them to a lower level of my house that's 70F, or my basement which is 66-68F. Should I keep them warm in the attic area, or move them to a more cool location? I don't want them to drop any more leaves.

You will absolutely need more light hours. My ficus on my desk at work is on a timer that runs it about 14 hours right now, and that's a species known for its adaptability to different light conditions. To a certain extent you can trade brightness of the light for time, but here you're going to need both. Elms, regardless of what kind, want sunlight. You cannot get too bright in this case.

This will turn into a concern for your newts eventually. How much night/darkness do they need to sleep and be healthy? If you're not going for bonsai styling, your trees can actually be pruned to help shade certain areas more for your amphibian friends while efficiently catching the light they need.

Another option here is something that is generally cautioned against; brighter grow bulbs with a narrower coverage. Each tree gets it's own smaller super bright lamp, but the rest of your enclosure is unlit.
You're the expert to inform us on the needs of newts.

 

[Paradox]

The leaves are wet because i just misted them. It is not overly humid in the box. Pretty much typical house humidity with central air. The attic is a tad less dry than the rest of the house. I stuck the chopstick about 3/4inch deep into the soil. Seems damp underneath still. The newts require no humidity, they are mostly aquatic. I want to create an enclosure similar to their natural habitat, I'm not trying to recreate it. They hail from only 4 streams in the entire world and they are all in the zagros mountain range of iran, which is actually more of a temperate area than what people would usually think about when imagining the middle east. They are lovely little creatures and quite a gem in the hobby! I'm an aquarium hobbyist. I have vast experience with aquatic plants, including co2 injection and the like. I actually am using a more expensive higher quality led light on this setup, for those who are curious or want to take time to research to help me. It's a twinstar ea 900.

ok just to clarify how you use the chopstick.
You put it in the soil of the pot and leave it there. Take it out once a day and check it.
Water your trees once the chopstick starts to get dry. Dont let it get completely dry.

 

[Aquaticjade]

You will absolutely need more light hours. My ficus on my desk at work is on a timer that runs it about 14 hours right now, and that's a species known for its adaptability to different light conditions. To a certain extent you can trade brightness of the light for time, but here you're going to need both. Elms, regardless of what kind, want sunlight. You cannot get too bright in this case.

This will turn into a concern for your newts eventually. How much night/darkness do they need to sleep and be healthy? If you're not going for bonsai styling, your trees can actually be pruned to help shade certain areas more for your amphibian friends while efficiently catching the light they need.

Another option here is something that is generally cautioned against; brighter grow bulbs with a narrower coverage. Each tree gets it's own smaller super bright lamp, but the rest of your enclosure is unlit.
You're the expert to inform us on the needs of newts.

They are mostly nocturnal, not meaning that they need to "sleep" during the day. They just do most of their activity like hunting for food at night. High lighting will be irrelevant to them because I will be building rockwork that will provide hides and caves for them where they will probably spend most of their time when the lights are on. LED lighting is going to be necessary however because warm water is deathly to newts. I need to keep their water cool, so any lighting that omits too much heat is a no go. Actually these LEDs are pretty high powered that they do put off some warmth as far as most LEDs go.

 

[Aquaticjade]

ok just to clarify how you use the chopstick.
You put it in the soil of the pot and leave it there. Take it out once a day and check it.
Water your trees once the chopstick starts to get dry. Dont let it get completely dry.

Oh lord do I feel like a dummy. Thank you SO much for clarifying that! BRB while I go cut up this chopstick hahaha

 

[Aquaticjade]

Just to help you guys help me...a little more info to give you an idea of what I intend on doing, feel free to check out some of his videos on YouTube to see how he plants everything because as bonsai lovers I feel his DIY water features would be of great interest to some of you!

This is a paludarium build by a Japanese artist that goes by asugreen11 on YouTube. I intend to replicate this exact setup as it's pretty identical to the waterfall where my newts' ancestors hail from.

He uses fraxinus griffithii (Griffiths ash). Looks like he grows his own seedlings and uses them in a lot of his tanks, some of them he has done year updates on and they grow and live well. Can't speak on his long term success, but Asians always do everything better lol! (I'm korean)

He uses crushed lava rock all the way up to the water line. Above that in the terrestrial areas, he then tops the lava stone (that has water actively filtering through) with filter floss. Tops the filter floss with akadama and then plants his fraxinus griffithii. Tops it off with moss and there you go! I think the intention is do allow the plants roots to be able to collect water and nutrients from the body of water, in a sense that there is a water table of filtered flowing water below the plant roots, but not in direct contact with them.

Here's a link to the video of his build that I'm going to replicate for those who are curious on how he plants the trees

 

[ShadyStump]

Yeah, shoulda explained that chopstick thing better.
My bad. Sorry.

I'm loving where you're going with this. As soon as I brought a tree to work my partner there started going off on how we need to make a whole terrarium with iguanas and tarantulas and stuff. He gets excited when I finds bugs crawling on the tree, and then I can't kill them.

Anyways, looks like you got a clue what you're aiming for. Lighting is going to be the key thing. That's where we all keep getting hung up.

 

[Aquaticjade]

Yeah, shoulda explained that chopstick thing better.
My bad. Sorry.

I'm loving where you're going with this. As soon as I brought a tree to work my partner there started going off on how we need to make a whole terrarium with iguanas and tarantulas and stuff. He gets excited when I finds bugs crawling on the tree, and then I can't kill them.

Anyways, looks like you got a clue what you're aiming for. Lighting is going to be the key thing. That's where we all keep getting hung up.

Would they be better off if I unpotted all of them in the next week or two, and planted them all in akadama in the grow tub until November? I could try and find a bulk bag of akadama online and make it about 4-5 in deep in the grow tub. I already upped the photoperiod to 13 hrs of lights on, and bought a desk fan to provide them constant air flow.

Here's the most details I can provide for my twinstar light

• LED Source: RGB-W
• LED Qty: White: 70 pcs / RGB: 104 pcs
• Color Temperature: 6500K
• Lumens: 3750lm
• Power Consumption: 60watts
• Operating Voltage and Current: 12V/5.0A
• Input Voltage: AC 110 ~ 240V, 50/60Hz
• LED Life Span: 30,000 hrs *Subject to the operating environment

 

[Gatorade]

I love paludariums. They are absolutely beautiful and natural looking. You can be so creative with it Too. My sister made a small setup for her newt growing up. Someone might have mentioned this but I think tiger bark ficus or willow leaf ficus would look amazing. i would also recommend Wigerts over Easter leaf especially for tropicals. They don’t mind the high humidity to. Good luck. Post some pics when finished. Would love to see it.

 

[Aquaticjade]

I love paludariums. They are absolutely beautiful and natural looking. You can be so creative with it Too. My sister made a small setup for her newt growing up. Someone might have mentioned this but I think tiger bark ficus or willow leaf ficus would look amazing. i would also recommend Wigerts over Easter leaf especially for tropicals. They don’t mind the high humidity to. Good luck. Post some pics when finished. Would love to see it.

I definitely will! I've been planning this build for a few months now. This paludarium will be low humidity. Aside from whatever extra humidity will come from the water feature, it will be in a large exo terra with a screen lid. With my experience with screen lids they hold very little if no extra humidity. In my tropical plaudarium I have an acrylic lid with a fogger on a timer that goes off for 30 minutes every 2 hours to achieve enough humidity for my tropical terrestrial plants. I haven't tried a "temperate" setup yet. Now with the extra info, do you guys think I can make the elms work in this planting style?

 

[Paradox]

Oh lord do I feel like a dummy. Thank you SO much for clarifying that! BRB while I go cut up this chopstick hahaha

Ha you would be surprised how many people don't realize this