New Japanese Black Pine

[Lazylightningny]

Hi everyone. Up for your consideration is this Japanese black pine I picked up this January 2021. Per the seller, it has been in this pot for 2-3 years, and all I have done so far is water and fertilize it. This is my first JBP. I've been paying attention to the pine gurus here on Bonsai Nut for years, as well as learning from Peter Warren and as a member of Bjorn's Bonsai-U. So, I have some idea of what to do, but no hands-on experience yet.

I don't necessarily have any solid design ideas yet. I'll prune as needed and see what develops. I would appreciate input from those who have experience. You know who you are.

First of all, is it healthy enough yet to start work? Naturally, of primary importance is the health of the tree.

What I was thinking of doing was pruning back to birurcations, and letting the remaining candles develop this year to strengthen the tree. I'll show some pics below. But of course I'm open to suggestions.

Here is the tree, rotated 360 degrees:

Number 1, trunk and top both lean away from the viewer



Number 2, base leans away from the viewer, top leans toward the viewer



Number 3,trunk and top both lean toward the viewer



And number 4, top leans completely away from the viewer



Here's a view from underneath the canopy:



The twigs I was considering pruning off were ones like this... ones that had multiple new shoots at their bases:



Let me know what you think. I look forward to hearing your suggestions!

 

[misfit11]

Very nice JBP with some great potential. I like #3 as a front.

Keep us posted of it's progress!

 

[Adair M]

Things to consider:

1) you CAN change the orientation of the tree and the angle it emerges from the soil.

2). When choosing the front, you want to have good nebari, and interesting trunk line.

3). While it is helpful to have well placed branches, you could graft a twig from this tree onto a location that needs a branch.

4). Avoid having heavy branches in the apex.

Your task(s) at this stage of the game are to determine your desired “front” and future planting angle, and figuring out where you want your primary branches.

You may want to consider cutting back and/or eliminating excess heavy branches in the apex. See where the “whorls” are and determine which branches should be eliminated in order to avoid developing reverse taper at the nodes.

You next task is to get in a supply of annealed copper wire!

Have fun!

 

[River's Edge]

If the tree was in front of me, I would consider the following in this order!
1. Examine the nebari and think through the improvements needed and what would remain to determine best format for nebari. ( plan for this next spring)
2. Look carefully at trunk line for most interesting flow to combine with nebari after improvements. ( examine all options, including planting angle changes )
3. Select branches to remain as primary, locations desired for additional primary. Remember that application of wire can and will allow a lot of flexibility for branch positioning at this stage of development. It is best to wire for position and downward movement of branches early on in the design process. When deciding which branches to keep be careful with respect to thickness of branch in relation to position on the tree. As Adair mentioned the thickness should reduce as you get closer to the apex. It is easier to thicken branches than rebuild them.
4. Select one or two sacrifice branches to remain to keep additional strength for the tree during development and thicken portions that still need thickening.
5. Remove unnecessary branches that will possibly shade out development or create problems with trunk or branches. Reduction

While doing this, remember if you wish to graft it is wise to retain additional foliage for that purpose and decandle this year so the new growth is ready for grafting later this winter. This can be kept on one of the sacrifice branches further from the trunk. That way it adds to the health of the tree and does not disrupt development when removed for grafting.

 

[Dav4]

All I know is that there had better be a dropped branch on this tree when the initial styling is done!!!


... and I absolutely agree with what Adair and Frank have written above. Nebari and trunk movement/taper will determine the best front. With that being said, somewhere between fronts 2 and 3 would be my focus

 

[Moridin]

Very nice JBP with some great potential. I like #3 as a front.

Keep us posted of it's progress!

This

 

[Lazylightningny]

Things to consider:

1) you CAN change the orientation of the tree and the angle it emerges from the soil.

2). When choosing the front, you want to have good nebari, and interesting trunk line.

3). While it is helpful to have well placed branches, you could graft a twig from this tree onto a location that needs a branch.

4). Avoid having heavy branches in the apex.

Your task(s) at this stage of the game are to determine your desired “front” and future planting angle, and figuring out where you want your primary branches.

You may want to consider cutting back and/or eliminating excess heavy branches in the apex. See where the “whorls” are and determine which branches should be eliminated in order to avoid developing reverse taper at the nodes.

You next task is to get in a supply of annealed copper wire!

Have fun!

I'm leaning toward somewhere around #3 as the front. #2 has a lot of crossing roots and #2.5 places a big root coming right toward the viewer.

I'm not unhappy with the planting angle. What would you suggest?

I do have copper wire! I've been stocking up.

If the tree was in front of me, I would consider the following in this order!
1. Examine the nebari and think through the improvements needed and what would remain to determine best format for nebari. ( plan for this next spring)
2. Look carefully at trunk line for most interesting flow to combine with nebari after improvements. ( examine all options, including planting angle changes )
3. Select branches to remain as primary, locations desired for additional primary. Remember that application of wire can and will allow a lot of flexibility for branch positioning at this stage of development. It is best to wire for position and downward movement of branches early on in the design process. When deciding which branches to keep be careful with respect to thickness of branch in relation to position on the tree. As Adair mentioned the thickness should reduce as you get closer to the apex. It is easier to thicken branches than rebuild them.
4. Select one or two sacrifice branches to remain to keep additional strength for the tree during development and thicken portions that still need thickening.
5. Remove unnecessary branches that will possibly shade out development or create problems with trunk or branches. Reduction

While doing this, remember if you wish to graft it is wise to retain additional foliage for that purpose and decandle this year so the new growth is ready for grafting later this winter. This can be kept on one of the sacrifice branches further from the trunk. That way it adds to the health of the tree and does not disrupt development when removed for grafting.

Frank, you're suggesting a repot next spring? That's a possibility. Would you also suggest a planting angle change? Suggestions?

I don't need any more thickness, so I could decandle the apex. I was hoping to prune back to whorls also lower on the trunk as Adair suggested.

All I know is that there had better be a dropped branch on this tree when the initial styling is done!!!


... and I absolutely agree with what Adair and Frank have written above. Nebari and trunk movement/taper will determine the best front. With that being said, somewhere between fronts 2 and 3 would be my focus

In view #3, the first branch on the right, at the bend, could be dropped. In honor of you

 

[River's Edge]

Frank, you're suggesting a repot next spring?

Primarily because I think the roots need improvement in order to make the most of the tree and pick the best design. I see lots of room for improving the nebari with a repot.

 

[River's Edge]

Would you also suggest a planting angle change?

That would depend on the trunk line chosen after the nebari are dealt with.
As you can guess I am suggesting moving back a couple of steps to ensure you get the very best out of the material. The planting angle will be best decided when the best nebari is determined. Some crossing roots and thick roots sided by side could be adjusted for improvement, That requires a careful and considered repot first. Unless you can visualize the change and know from previous repots which roots can be dealt with in accordance with the existing root ball.
My preference is to keep as much foliage as possible when planning a major repot to aid in recovery.
Hope my explanation makes sense.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Fifth picture from top has best rootage. Possibly rotated slightly. Personally would develop from this front.

 

[Lazylightningny]

That would depend on the trunk line chosen after the nebari are dealt with.
As you can guess I am suggesting moving back a couple of steps to ensure you get the very best out of the material. The planting angle will be best decided when the best nebari is determined. Some crossing roots and thick roots sided by side could be adjusted for improvement, That requires a careful and considered repot first. Unless you can visualize the change and know from previous repots which roots can be dealt with in accordance with the existing root ball.
My preference is to keep as much foliage as possible when planning a major repot to aid in recovery.
Hope my explanation makes sense.

Frank I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. Any suggestions for a planting angle change and best nebari?

 

[Adair M]

Frank I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. Any suggestions for a planting angle change and best nebari?

Look at the first two photos you posted. There are lots of crossing roots. And roots that are exposed. These kinds of roots are typical of nursery grown trees in pots.

The idea is to have evenly spaced radial roots that tend to melt into the soil. Where you only see the top of the root, rather than the full circumference.

 

[River's Edge]

Frank I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. Any suggestions for a planting angle change and best nebari?

It appears to me that the nebari have not been properly addressed to get the most out of this material. The material can be improved which will result in a better outcome. Perhaps the following will help. I always find that it is important to have the nebari improved as much as possible prior to determining planting angle. A few degrees can make a huge difference in design and outcome. I have put a rough makeup on items that I would address. Each person will view this differently and this is just my suggestion. Also keep in mind that working from pictures is very difficult. The actual repotting process allows for better decision making as one can trace and determine the effect of removing or repositioning roots at that time. I note an aerial root, crossing roots (2) and a bulging root breaking the surface. Whatever steps you can take to improve or correct those will affect the outcome. When a tree is judged the two most heavily weighted factors in the score are nebari and trunk line. One affects the other and it is very important to make the most of both from the very beginning. Your tree has lots of potential it pays to take your time. Remember that roots can also be repositioned at times, removal is not the only solution. Actually they can be pretty flexible and can be wired, pinned or blocked into other positions. Thicker roots can be split or reduced as required. Just mentioning possibilities not directing a particular action. It always needs to be thought through with other options during the actual repotting process, not based on pictures from a distance.

 

[luvinthemountains]

Fifth picture from top has best rootage. Possibly rotated slightly. Personally would develop from this front.

My (very) amateur opinion also likes #5 for the stability of the base. This view of the trunk also makes me wonder if you could get a nice, dramatic trunk line by bringing that first big bend WAY in, so your trunk line doubles back on itself. It is an advanced technique, but I am as sure that there is somebody who could successfully do it as I am that I would break the trunk and kill the tree in the process.

But @River's Edge is correct that the nebari would benefit from significant rehabilitation. You may have more patience than I would!

 

[Lazylightningny]

Look at the first two photos you posted. There are lots of crossing roots. And roots that are exposed. These kinds of roots are typical of nursery grown trees in pots.

The idea is to have evenly spaced radial roots that tend to melt into the soil. Where you only see the top of the root, rather than the full circumference.

It appears to me that the nebari have not been properly addressed to get the most out of this material. The material can be improved which will result in a better outcome. Perhaps the following will help. I always find that it is important to have the nebari improved as much as possible prior to determining planting angle. A few degrees can make a huge difference in design and outcome. I have put a rough makeup on items that I would address. Each person will view this differently and this is just my suggestion. Also keep in mind that working from pictures is very difficult. The actual repotting process allows for better decision making as one can trace and determine the effect of removing or repositioning roots at that time. I note an aerial root, crossing roots (2) and a bulging root breaking the surface. Whatever steps you can take to improve or correct those will affect the outcome. When a tree is judged the two most heavily weighted factors in the score are nebari and trunk line. One affects the other and it is very important to make the most of both from the very beginning. Your tree has lots of potential it pays to take your time. Remember that roots can also be repositioned at times, removal is not the only solution. Actually they can be pretty flexible and can be wired, pinned or blocked into other positions. Thicker roots can be split or reduced as required. Just mentioning possibilities not directing a particular action. It always needs to be thought through with other options during the actual repotting process, not based on pictures from a distance.

thanks, you've both given me a lot to think about. I'll take another careful look at the tree's roots and nebari

My (very) amateur opinion also likes #5 for the stability of the base. This view of the trunk also makes me wonder if you could get a nice, dramatic trunk line by bringing that first big bend WAY in, so your trunk line doubles back on itself. It is an advanced technique, but I am as sure that there is somebody who could successfully do it as I am that I would break the trunk and kill the tree in the process.

But @River's Edge is correct that the nebari would benefit from significant rehabilitation. You may have more patience than I would!

Number 5 is actually #2 taken from a lower angle to see the underside of the canopy better.

Are you saying to make the two major bends sharper? Thanks for the comments.

 

[sorce]

Chop it to the first branch!

Ecros

 

[luvinthemountains]

Are you saying to make the two major bends sharper?

Yes, much sharper. This virt is awful:

 

[Lazylightningny]

Chop it to the first branch!

Ecros

But I have to drop that first branch for Dav4!

Yes, much sharper. This virt is awful:

Ok, I see where you're coming from. That's a possibility. Like you said, a fairly advanced move for a trunk this thick.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

+1 on the third photo for the front. I’d try to use as much of the trunk as you can, not chopping it to the first branch or forcing it into some odd windswept shape.

There is a very specific shape used in Japanese gardens, usually at the entrance, and it’s a welcoming shape and symbolizes protection. I cannot find where I read it or what it’s called, but it’s somewhat like the attached (although the examples are white pines). It’s what came to my mind when I saw your tree.

Fun to get a new piece of stock, look forward to seeing it develop over time.

 

[Hartinez]

What @Brian Van Fleet said