Need some help on Elm

[Tieball]

It is

That's an interesting idea. So you have removed all of your branches at the trunk and waited for new buds all over the tree.
That seems like quite a gamble.
Makes some sense as they say to grow the trunk first.
Don't know if I am up to that.
What are you projecting for a time line to have a decent tree once again?
Do the rest of you have an opinion as to which method might lead to a better tree in the end?
I'm getting older so I don't know & yes I know that these trees are a never ending project.
Thanks for the help.

A gamble but Elm tree trunks, mine are American Elms, respond very well. It took less than three weeks for the trunk to turn into a bush with branches growing all over…top to bottom. At three weeks new branches were 8” to 10” in length. I did not photograph the “bush” look. However, when it’s daylight tomorrow I’ll take a photo of the branches selected and newly pruned for starting over. The tree is in rough form right now but exactly where I wanted it to be for starting over. I’ll include the bare trunk photo, and an after a second branch selection pruning photo if you’re interested. I'll let it just grow now for the rest of the season and likely won’t prune it again until spring 2024. I’ve never had an American Elm tree that did not bud back all over. In about three years it will again resemble a bonsai tree.

I don’t know if it’s what you’d like to do. I do it quite often with American Elms when the tree just gets to coarse. I enjoy the growth change.

 

[j evans]

Thank you. I'd appreciate getting to see the photos. I've killed off a few "treasured" plants by doing extreme things so I'm a bit leary.

 

[Tieball]

American Elm photos. I attached three photos:

The first photo is the trunk after I removed all the branches in the middle of May 2023. Around May 12, 2023. Then I further cut back the top a couple days later down to a short stub.

The second photo is the tree today at middle June 2023. I forgot to photograph the branch bush growth in between. This photo was taken this morning and is about four days after I pruned the bush growth back, removing about two-thirds of the branches, and selected only a few branches. More buds will appear soon. The tree will continue growth this season and I won’t prune again until spring of 2024. Right now it just looks scrappy as it begins a new tree journey.

The third photo is a different American Elm that I chopped down from a four foot height to the seven inches it is now. This chopping was done around three weeks ago. This is just to show the type of growth that was a part of the bush growth I mentioned for the second photo. I am experimenting with a short older looking trunk with a trunk carving or hollow that has strong side survival growth. I have a lot to figure out on this one yet but I’m confident I’ll arrive at a development start in the 2024 season after a winter of research and thinking. Or, I may simply regrow it taller.

This is late spring and the American Elms respond very well to any cuts and pruning. Several other trees I have were branch pruned down to two or three leaves and these have all responded well with new growth that filled in the trees and new growth that has already grown to four to five inches in length all over the trees.

 

[rockm]

American Elm photos. I attached three photos:

The first photo is the trunk after I removed all the branches in the middle of May 2023. Around May 12, 2023. Then I further cut back the top a couple days later down to a short stub.

The second photo is the tree today at middle June 2023. I forgot to photograph the branch bush growth in between. This photo was taken this morning and is about four days after I pruned the bush growth back, removing about two-thirds of the branches, and selected only a few branches. More buds will appear soon. The tree will continue growth this season and I won’t prune again until spring of 2024. Right now it just looks scrappy as it begins a new tree journey.

The third photo is a different American Elm that I chopped down from a four foot height to the seven inches it is now. This chopping was done around three weeks ago. This is just to show the type of growth that was a part of the bush growth I mentioned for the second photo. I am experimenting with a short older looking trunk with a trunk carving or hollow that has strong side survival growth. I have a lot to figure out on this one yet but I’m confident I’ll arrive at a development start in the 2024 season after a winter of research and thinking. Or, I may simply regrow it taller.

This is late spring and the American Elms respond very well to any cuts and pruning. Several other trees I have were branch pruned down to two or three leaves and these have all responded well with new growth that filled in the trees and new growth that has already grown to four to five inches in length all over the trees.

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Yup. Typical response by an elm. I've done this with Chinese elm and Cedar elm. It's common practice in collecting elms to reduce them to stumps with a rootmass that will fit into a bonsai pot. Done that with 5-6 diameter trunks. That results in no branching. They bounce back easily. Here's what one of my cedar elms looked like at collection.

 

[ChefB]

I think you should reread your own thread. Smoke was leading you well. Not sure what happened. Did you ever get a bud to pop in the first branch position on the lower right in the original front?

 

[BobbyLane]

That's an interesting idea. So you have removed all of your branches at the trunk and waited for new buds all over the tree.
That seems like quite a gamble.
Makes some sense as they say to grow the trunk first.
Don't know if I am up to that.
What are you projecting for a time line to have a decent tree once again?
Do the rest of you have an opinion as to which method might lead to a better tree in the end?
I'm getting older so I don't know & yes I know that these trees are a never ending project.
Thanks for the help.

In your case there's absolutely no need to do that or contemplate doing that. I think maybe he's referring to adventitious shoots, that grew out of your basic primary lines, these lines in the photo:


Maybe he was suggesting that the shoots which have emerged under what you have here should be removed to to focus the energy on your keepers. I suspect the primary lines in this photo are your keepers. Theres good bones here, I would focus on growing the tree out, lettings things thicken, then cutting back a couple times in the season for taper then assessing over winter.
you said you want to build a better quality tree, thats how really, plus there's some great tips in this video

I recently posted this photo somewhere else, Potter grew this with only clip n grow. I think yours is at the stage where clip n grow is fine. maybe the odd piece of wire to position primary lines if need be

 

[ChefB]

Trying to get back to your original design seems advantageous. you still need a branch on the outside of that first curve. The next branch on the right side above it is too large and should be removed but it looks like there’s another branch just above it that can be used. The yellow lines are indicating new branches. The blue lines are indicating back branches. All that mess at the top of the tree should be removed to a single Apex moving to the right. The first branch was the important one, so you could start thickening it up more than the branches above it.

 

[BobbyLane]

So areas like the red circle where you have that branch shooting upwards behind the other branch need to be cut back. cutting back to the blue will give you a change of direction and eliminate the awkward crossing. The low branch with the arrow, if that can be guy wired down it wont cross over the one directly above it. you can learn about all these ideas in the video though.

 

[Tieball]

@j evans If you can see what @BobbyLane shows here in the photo he attached do not follow my chop it all off recommendation. Follow what @BobbyLane says. It’s sound practical advice that lets you restart with what you have now with a little minor pruning to cleanup the tree. He has a good eye for tree structure and future directions. This is an excellent direction. I would definitely accept and act on his opinion and pruning advice.

 

[j evans]

ChefB - Smoke had an issue with me asking for opinions when he made a suggestion.

Bobby - I will watch the video and always find him interesting. I agree with the problem areas that you have addressed. The apex seems to be the one of the major issues with this tree. I agree that it lacks taper. Does it need to be cut back to where the rough bark stops? I also wonder if the second level of branches that are all on the same plane are a problem.

Thank you everyone for your input.

 

[j evans]

Any additional thoughts on this apex?

 

[ChefB]

I

ChefB - Smoke had an issue with me asking for opinions when he made a suggestion.

Bobby - I will watch the video and always find him interesting. I agree with the problem areas that you have addressed. The apex seems to be the one of the major issues with this tree. I agree that it lacks taper. Does it need to be cut back to where the rough bark stops? I also wonder if the second level of branches that are all on the same plane are a problem.

Thank you everyone for your input.

I was having problems with you asking for opinions after his suggestions also. Your tree was turning into something while you were following his suggestions. You asking for opinions from other people while he was telling you precisely what to do with the tree was like a slap in the face. Why would he waste his time guiding you if you’re just gonna ignore the advice and just ask random opinions. I get it. I do hope you get your tree back on track though, such a nice trunk.

 

[j evans]

You would have to see the whole conversation to understand what went on. I'm trying to learn different ideas, methods etc. While I very much appreciated the help and told him so numerous times i was just trying to understand why the situation was not correct and if I was the only one not understanding.
I thought part of this forum was to gather ideas and to help each other become better.
Thanks for your opinion.

 

[ERClover]

What a thread. This is the first place I’ve encountered where there is decade long documentation and detailed rationale and advice on decision making throughout the development process. So glad I found this forum!

For some perspective, as someone newer to the hobby all throughout the timeline of this thread you have had a tree that someone like me would love to have and look forward to developing myself, which this journey will lend a great deal towards. Despite some of the finer critiques and goals you have at the end of the day you really do have a wonderful tree for what it’s worth!

 

[j evans]

ERClover - thanks for your thoughts & nice comments. It is appreciated.

 

[j evans]

I just did some root work last year. Other than that I just let it grow. Today I pulled it out, what a mess. I just rough trimmed some overgrowth. Now I am more at a loss than ever. Seems that I have numerous branches on the same plane as each other. I also see a problem and think the apex needs to be chopped down to about 1-2" above the rough bark. Due to the extra growing time I'm having a hard time matching up with Mr Lanes markup. I'm wondering about cutting back all of the branches to stubs and rebuilding more extensively. This is what I get for letting it go.
Thanks for you input.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

what does the tree look like now with bobby's intended front, if his vision is what you want to go for.

 

[j evans]

Here is the tree the other day. The photo that Bobby used must be at least several years old. One thing I arrived at is that I think I'd like to chop where marked in blue or maybe even a bit lower.
Looking at it from this angle I also have some branches that circle around. I would assume that those should be cut back so they project out from the trunk.
Also the branches that come straight at you from the trunk how should they be handled?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

i would remove the front facing branch and cut back to my red marks then keep a tight apex and start ramification.

 

[j evans]

Most of that makes sense. The reason I was chopping shorter is that there is a buldge in the trunk.
What about shortening some of the side branches?
I'll look at it again tomorrow. Thanks for the help.