Need help on juniper refinement techniques

sorce said:
If you can get your truck right close to that side of the hill, with a couple planks, I'll bet you can get it yourself on a foggy morning.

Sorce
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A tree like this must of needs be of such quality, as a potential bonsai, to make risking it's life worth the effort. In my mind it is wrong to harvest a large old tree like this just to see if you can, and I am not saying that is what is happening here, just saying; trees like this are almost sacred and should be honored by preserving its life if you cannot realistically make a bonsai of it. Just digging a 12' wide tree out of the ground just to do so is wrong.
 
Vance Wood said:
A tree like this must of needs be of such quality, as a potential bonsai, to make risking it's life worth the effort. In my mind it is wrong to harvest a large old tree like this just to see if you can, and I am not saying that is what is happening here, just saying; trees like this are almost sacred and should be honored by preserving its life if you cannot realistically make a bonsai of it. Just digging a 12' wide tree out of the ground just to do so is wrong.
Click to expand...

I agree....
My odd experience with stuff like that has been it "disappearing".
As in, smashed or otherwise mauled by fisherman.
Removed by park services.
Plowed for construction.

I have been on a keen search for trees.
But having no where to put them always disallows for my trying to obtain them..

That Said...if I wanted that tree of BVF's, it will be washed down that hill the next time I go....

It is in my experience that if you see a tree you like...
The time to inquire of its future with the owner is NOW.

"No", can not hurt.

But, "shit dude, you see that orange truck down the block? It's coming to put that piece of shit in the chipper right now, you want it?"

Is a much more likely response, in my experience.

The necessity of my hesitation has allowed me this perspective....

(Sean Connery voice)

"Never Hesitate!"

Sorce
 
sorce said:
I agree....
My odd experience with stuff like that has been it "disappearing".
As in, smashed or otherwise mauled by fisherman.
Removed by park services.
Plowed for construction.

I have been on a keen search for trees.
But having no where to put them always disallows for my trying to obtain them..

That Said...if I wanted that tree of BVF's, it will be washed down that hill the next time I go....

It is in my experience that if you see a tree you like...
The time to inquire of its future with the owner is NOW.

"No", can not hurt.

But, "shit dude, you see that orange truck down the block? It's coming to put that piece of shit in the chipper right now, you want it?"

Is a much more likely response, in my experience.

The necessity of my hesitation has allowed me this perspective....

(Sean Connery voice)

"Never Hesitate!"

Sorce
Click to expand...
That may very well be true but collect the tree without permission and see what happens. I have a friend who fancied a tree on a vacant lot. He found the owner of the property and was denied access to the tree. A week later the tree was plowed out of the ground and left sitting there as an insult. There are people out there that don't want something but they don't want you to have it either.
 
I could Probly could find where I remember you saying that last time!

Because I remember it so well.
Oh, I am a SOV too!

I was thinking about how this guy I work with talks to everyone, the most random BS ever....but he builds excellent rapport.

That Said, if anyone feels they are unable to change the mind of someone like of whom you speak, I would recommend bringing your favorite salesman with, to close the deal..

To me....

Even in that case....
If you can find the owner.....
Approach is everything....

It's only sales...
Talk to the dude about his truck.....
25 minutes later, the tree is in his truck on the way to drop you and the tree off at your house...
Because you've built his truck ego up so much he wants to show you want it can do!

Never say Never!

Sorce
 
M. Frary said:
Me or someone just like me driving it. I know the orange trucks for sure.
Click to expand...

I was thinking if they were the same color everywhere! Lol....

I watched a thing on some crazy lights in Mitten, where the cool valley air and hot higher air bends car lights....made me think about you fellers!

Sorce
 
M. Frary said:
But the chipper makes such a wonderful sound when trees go through. Especially old ones.
Click to expand...

I love that sound!

Ever since I was little I had a thing for the chipper....
Amazing piece of equipment....
El Druggo Testo...
Or I woulda been climbin and chippin!

Sorce
 
Update: the tree started off a little slow this spring, but is taking off nicely now. This spring, I repotted into fresh bonsai soil, with no root pruning. It has been in full sun, with weekly fertilizing using Miracle-Gro at regular strength. No pruning or trimming has been done. There has been a lot of new growth budding from the crotches of green branches, but so far, no back budding on older wood. Some of the tips have extended, some not. I was really hoping for stronger back budding, especially on older wood. All new growth is juvenile, stronger on the top fork than the bottom one. I have removed all the wire and replaced with a couple of guy wires. The shape didn't completely hold, but I was worried that since the tree is weak, that the wire was compromising its health. There was a little cracking at the bend of the bottom fork, so I loosened up the guy wire and placed some putty over the crack.

Overall, I'm quite happy, though I did hope for more back budding. My plan is to let it keep running for the rest of the year, and contemplate some strategic pruning over the winter. No repot next year. I'll leave it potted as is for a couple of years. Next year I'm hoping to begin condensing the foliage a little.

Any further thoughts are appreciated.
 
You probably need to just let it grow for a year. Maybe two.

You want backbudding? Let it grow really strong And vigorous. Let it get a real strong root system. Then, when you cut back, it will have lots of stored energy. If you constantly pick at it, pruning a bit here and and little there, it never gets strong.

An example:

image.jpeg

It's a pine, obviously, but look at the growth! Obviously growing strong! When trees are growing like this, they're practically bullet proof! You can do most anything and they will bounce back.

Weak trees just sulk and decline.
 
Lazylightningny said:
Update: the tree started off a little slow this spring, but is taking off nicely now. This spring, I repotted into fresh bonsai soil, with no root pruning. It has been in full sun, with weekly fertilizing using Miracle-Gro at regular strength. No pruning or trimming has been done. There has been a lot of new growth budding from the crotches of green branches, but so far, no back budding on older wood. Some of the tips have extended, some not. I was really hoping for stronger back budding, especially on older wood. All new growth is juvenile, stronger on the top fork than the bottom one. I have removed all the wire and replaced with a couple of guy wires. The shape didn't completely hold, but I was worried that since the tree is weak, that the wire was compromising its health. There was a little cracking at the bend of the bottom fork, so I loosened up the guy wire and placed some putty over the crack.

Overall, I'm quite happy, though I did hope for more back budding. My plan is to let it keep running for the rest of the year, and contemplate some strategic pruning over the winter. No repot next year. I'll leave it potted as is for a couple of years. Next year I'm hoping to begin condensing the foliage a little.

Any further thoughts are appreciated.
Click to expand...

Hi Lazy,

it disturbs the tree more to take wire off than to leave old wire on, taking old wire off especially disturbs the roots a lot, I would've left the wire on as the tree already got used to the wire and the wire would not have compromised the vigor of the tree. Get ready for 3 years of juvenile foliage. If you look at my thread it will show the timeline. first styled 2013,

Let it grow now, only take out dead and dried op needles on the inner branches, otherwise they peg you and the little points break off inside your skin when you are wiring....not very nice.
also do not fertilize it overly much, otherwise the juvenile growth will be too vigorous and give you overly long shoots you can't do anything with. I fertilize my small grey owl twice a season; once in early spring and once in early autumn, kept it nice and tight through it's juvenile phase


bwaynef said:
Looks like this guy has figured out how to handle J. v. 'Grey Owl' foliage. Check out the density of foliage on his tree(s). Maybe he can answer some of your questions.

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/california-juniper-discussion/grey-owls-for-sorce/
Click to expand...

How you doing Wayne!

best regards
Herman
 
Great advice guys. I will especially take the fertilizing advice to heart, as I have been fertilizing weekly and getting long growth. I haven't pruned at all this season and perhaps I'll let it run another year as Adair suggests. Thank you all for your input.
 
Any help from someone with experience in this cultivar would be greatly appreciated.
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The only good thing about Grey owl is that it's fast growing. I tried this cultivar for many years and it never amounted to much. However! It does take shimpaku grafts very easily and I highly recommend that you persist with it with a view to grafting itoigawa or similar onto it one day. You will be very pleased with the results.
BTW. Grey owl is a hybrid juniper. Juniperus x media (sabina x chinensis) x virginiana.
 
MichaelS said:
Grey owl is a hybrid juniper. Juniperus x media (sabina x chinensis) x virginiana.
Click to expand...

There seems to be two different types of grey owl
botanical names are
- Juniperus Virginiana 'Grey Owl' = cultivar of eastern red cedar - cultivar was first propagated in USA
- Juniperus X Grey Owl = cross between J. virginiana ‘Glauca’ and . × pfitzeriana ‘Wilhelm Pfitzer.’ (X media)
- J. × pfitzeriana is a cross between J.chinensis and J.Sabina
- First propagated in the Netherlands
Can you shed some light on the confusion @MichaelS?

I have 3 X medias and 3 Grey owls and the foliage shape, tendencies and growth habit have no similarities?

Best regards
Herman
 
Lazylightningny said:
I lived in Utah for many years, and the native junipers are indeed beautiful. Makes me want to write a letter to the BLM for permission to collect, and take a road trip.
Click to expand...


So! I can't help but ask, is that an option?

Would the Bureau of Land Management ever grant that?


I REALLY want a Utah juniper eventually and I can't seem to find ANY that aren't already in bonsai form (i want to grow one out and style it). Living in NYC means my local nurseries have about a 00.00001% chance of having one. I can't seem to find any online nurseries that even stock them , either. I was beginning to wonder if I'd have to fly to Utah eventually on vacation and go hunting but then I realized I'd have no idea how to collect in that climate or what is even allowed by the state.
 
Utah Junipers are beautiful. Do some schmoozing around and see if you can find someone that lives out that way. Check out a list of members that frequent this site and I know there are a couple of collectors that frequent here.
 
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