Need a little help

[Leo in N E Illinois]

New thread on this? lol It will drown because you don't have an aeration layer, it's in heavy nursery soil (which if fine) but because it's now in a pot with likely one very small drainage hole that is likely blocked with the root base. This is why nursery containers are fine for nursery soil because they have lots of drainage holes. When you water it with a water wand for a few seconds at med-low pressure does the water pool on the top of the pot?

I am sorry, but the "drainage layer" is another bonsai myth - absolute horseshit. @Mike Hennigan is correct. A drainage layer impedes draining. You are pushing another out of date, 1880's outmoded gardening technique from the Royal Botanic Garden at Kew. Drainage layer needed to be done when wire screen, or plastic screen was not available to hold media in a pot. But once wire screens and later plastic screens were invented There was no need to layer particle sizes in the pot. It is outdated and does the exact opposite of its stated goal.

 

[AppleBonsai]

So every year nurseries toss out the trees from the previous season because they don't have a drainage layer and get new ones that are a year older but yet look exactly the same just a year older?
Who knew?

Reading is not your strong suit. Is it?

 

[AppleBonsai]

I am sorry, but the "drainage layer" is another bonsai myth - absolute horseshit. @Mike Hennigan is correct. A drainage layer impedes draining. You are pushing another out of date, 1880's outmoded gardening technique from the Royal Botanic Garden at Kew. Drainage layer needed to be done when wire screen, or plastic screen was not available to hold media in a pot. But once wire screens and later plastic screens were invented There was no need to layer particle sizes in the pot. It is outdated and does the exact opposite of its stated goal.

Did I say "drainage layer"?

 

[AppleBonsai]

Aeration layer doesn’t improve drainage of water, it impedes it. But it does allow more air in from the bottom. The holes in nursery pots aren’t what make them work correctly, really, it’s the shape of the pot. A pot that is talller than it is wide will drain much better than a typical bonsai pot. The pot he has repotted in is taller than it is wide (just barely) so that is working in his favor. I guess the bigger question is why repot into such a pot? You may as well have just left it in the nursery pot, it’s not really accomplishing anything different. And keep in mind that terra cotta will start to dissolve/break apart with freeze thaw cycles because terra cotta is low fired highly porous pottery that absorbs water and then that water freezes in the walls of your pot. Similar to how I’ve breaks apart asphalt after a while.

Didn't say anything about a drainage layer. Nursery are containers designed to work with the soil- so you can use pretty inexpensive soil components. If you set a root ball on top of the one hole on a terra cota pot- see how well that works for you.

 

[AppleBonsai]

Oh you’re in SoCal, ignore the freeze thaw thing. Terra cotta in my climate is a disaster waiting to happen.

Super reader award!

 

[Bonsaidoorguy]

I am sorry, but the "drainage layer" is another bonsai myth - absolute horseshit. @Mike Hennigan is correct. A drainage layer impedes draining. You are pushing another out of date, 1880's outmoded gardening technique from the Royal Botanic Garden at Kew. Drainage layer needed to be done when wire screen, or plastic screen was not available to hold media in a pot. But once wire screens and later plastic screens were invented There was no need to layer particle sizes in the pot. It is outdated and does the exact opposite of its stated goal.

Yes. It's a habit that I had to break myself of. Perched water table, it's a thing. I have a book "the Japanese art of miniature trees and landscapes" that was written in the fifties. There's a whole section on layering your soil that is totally outdated and just incorrect we now know. A screen and good soil is all you need. It's all in the watering after that.

 

[Woocash]

So every year nurseries toss out the trees from the previous season because they don't have a drainage layer and get new ones that are a year older but yet look exactly the same just a year older?
Who knew?

That’s what I thought really. Surely it only makes sense to need aeration if the roots have been messed with and need to recover. Otherwise why would they use compost which kills all their stock? Or have I got that all wrong?

 

[Adair M]

Guys, it sounds like he slip potted, a REAL slip pot, out if plastic into a terra cotta pot. No big deal. Terra cotta is fine. It’s just like to break under freeze/thaw conditions.

Drown? Keep it out of the rain??? Excuse me? My god, it’s a tree!!! It was in a plastic pot for years! It didn’t drown! What are you guys smoking??? Yes, a single hole terra cotta pot will work just fine!



Here’s a JWP (grafted on JBP roots) in a single hole Japanese azalea pot. It looks like terra cotta, but it’s weather proof fired.)

 

[coh]

Guys, it sounds like he slip potted, a REAL slip pot, out if plastic into a terra cotta pot. No big deal. Terra cotta is fine. It’s just like to break under freeze/thaw conditions.

Drown? Keep it out of the rain??? Excuse me? My god, it’s a tree!!! It was in a plastic pot for years! It didn’t drown! What are you guys smoking??? Yes, a single hole terra cotta pot will work just fine!

Some of the "advice" I've been seeing on the forum lately leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. I read that stuff about the tree drowning and...well, there really are no words. I've slip-potted trees into one-hole terra cotta containers many times and have never had a tree "drown". What are people smoking, indeed!

 

[Adair M]

Some of the "advice" I've been seeing on the forum lately leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. I read that stuff about the tree drowning and...well, there really are no words. I've slip-potted trees into one-hole terra cotta containers many times and have never had a tree "drown". What are people smoking, indeed!

Yeah, but coh, you’re just a look-alike-master, not a real BonsaiNut!

 

[Mike Hennigan]

lol It will drown because you don't have an aeration layer,

You saying it will drown, as in water won’t drain, because there is an aeration layer . Did I miss something?

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Super reader award!

I’m sure you’ll go far around here with that kind of winning attitude. Jackass.

 

[M. Frary]

Reading is not your strong suit. Is it?

Bonsai isn't yours apparently.
And your horticultural knowledge is pretty much non existant also.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

You saying it will drown, as in water won’t drain, because there is an aeration layer . Did I miss something?

No**** guess I win the super writing award as well.

 

[coh]

Yeah, but coh, you’re just a look-alike-master, not a real BonsaiNut!

Nah, I know my place. I'm just a look-alike-master-wannabe! But I do know bs when I see it, and there's been a lot of it lately.

 

[River's Edge]

Aeration layer doesn’t improve drainage of water, it impedes it. But it does allow more air in from the bottom. The holes in nursery pots aren’t what make them work correctly, really, it’s the shape of the pot. A pot that is talller than it is wide will drain much better than a typical bonsai pot. The pot he has repotted in is taller than it is wide (just barely) so that is working in his favor. I guess the bigger question is why repot into such a pot? You may as well have just left it in the nursery pot, it’s not really accomplishing anything different. And keep in mind that terra cotta will start to dissolve/break apart with freeze thaw cycles because terra cotta is low fired highly porous pottery that absorbs water and then that water freezes in the walls of your pot. Similar to how I’ve breaks apart asphalt after a while.

A drainage or aeration layer only impedes drainage if the particle size is significantly different from the media directly above it! Then you get what is referred to as a perched water effect. Using a drainage layer correctly does not cause a problem. It can improve the situation. However in this case the soil mix does not appear to be conducive to using a drainage layer. IE: not sifted and similar particle size.

 

[leatherback]

Besides all the name calling, very interesting discussion.

The drainage layer is counter intuitive but what I have found is indeed.. they do not help..

Drown? Keep it out of the rain??? Excuse me? My god, it’s a tree!!! It was in a plastic pot for years! It didn’t drown! What are you guys smoking??? Yes, a single hole terra cotta pot will work just fine!

I am the last one concerned about my trees drowning, keaving all of my frost resistent ones in full weather year round. But i have all my trees in open substrate.

@Adair M do you find that also i very dense organics like the potting mix used here, there is very little risk of root die off over winter? Especially for Pine I always understood that months of fully saturated pots was a health risk?

Not trying to be a smart ass, being curious. For the OP but also because I have been very good at killing pines. Sold my last one and have a new pine reserved for a workshop.

 

[Adair M]

Besides all the name calling, very interesting discussion.

The drainage layer is counter intuitive but what I have found is indeed.. they do not help..





I am the last one concerned about my trees drowning, keaving all of my frost resistent ones in full weather year round. But i have all my trees in open substrate.

@Adair M do you find that also i very dense organics like the potting mix used here, there is very little risk of root die off over winter? Especially for Pine I always understood that months of fully saturated pots was a health risk?

Not trying to be a smart ass, being curious. For the OP but also because I have been very good at killing pines. Sold my last one and have a new pine reserved for a workshop.

You may be killing pines but drowning isn’t the reason. How do you think the nursery kept the tree before the OP purchased it? In the plastic pot outside. The soil will work for a couple years before it starts to break down and rot.

 

[sorce]

I'd bet this tree has a much better chance of drying to death than drowning.

Besides the spaces likely created by the "slip pot", a "drainage/aeration layer" will create more space.

This space allows water to run out freely. So it can't fill up the entire pot and soak the entire mass of rooty soil.

That's if water can even get past what will be a dry solid coat of dirt on top.

This is rather simple physics.

You are ALL caught up in backwards dumb shit.

The only way to successfully water this now, especially in Socal, is to put the whole shebang in a bucket and let the bubbles stop.

Drowning?

Not a chance!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I'd bet this tree has a much better chance of drying to death than drowning.

Besides the spaces likely created by the "slip pot", a "drainage/aeration layer" will create more space.

This space allows water to run out freely. So it can't fill up the entire pot and soak the entire mass of rooty soil.

That's if water can even get past what will be a dry solid coat of dirt on top.

This is rather simple physics.

You are ALL caught up in backwards dumb shit.

The only way to successfully water this now, especially in Socal, is to put the whole shebang in a bucket and let the bubbles stop.

Drowning?

Not a chance!

Sorce

You’re speculating, with no evidence. What if he waters two or three times a day? Maybe he has a timed watering system? Maybe it doesn’t sit out in full sun?

If all these “drowning” and “drying out” scenarios were true, no commercial nursery could be in business as all their inventory would be dead in a week!

I have kept newly purchased nursery stock in whatever pot it came in for a couple of years until it was convenient for me to do a proper potting.

Calm down, folks! I’ve never seen such an over-reaction to someone moving a tree from one pot to another! Much Ado About Nothing!