My new, and 1st, Shimpaku

[Vance Wood]

Hey Vance..so, with the new soil I substituted in and around the tree's rootball, do you think that should remedy any potential of root rot?

I am contemplating another slip into a pond basket for other reasons than root rot, but that may help also if it's not too hard on the tree at this point.

Just how compacted is the old soil? That is the real defining issue. If it is pretty had you will probably have to hose at least 50% of it off. This is safer than using a chop stick or some other sharp object to pry the old soil lose. Make sure you save a good deal of the old soil before you start hosing off the rest of the 50%, you are going to mix some of it with the new soil so as to inoculate the new soil with microhiza.(sp?)

Put the tree in the pond basket, something I approve of, and leave it along for a year. Put the tree in a semi-shaded environment for at least two weeks. Once it starts growing you can increase its exposure to sunlight. Just in case it comes up Kimura recommends putting freshly repotted Junipers in full sun but, I don't recommend that in your growing area. Sorry if I contributed to making your post a flame war.

 

[jedge76]

Just how compacted is the old soil? That is the real defining issue. If it is pretty had you will probably have to hose at least 50% of it off. This is safer than using a chop stick or some other sharp object to pry the old soil lose. Make sure you save a good deal of the old soil before you start hosing off the rest of the 50%, you are going to mix some of it with the new soil so as to inoculate the new soil with microhiza.(sp?)

Put the tree in the pond basket, something I approve of, and leave it along for a year. Put the tree in a semi-shaded environment for at least two weeks. Once it starts growing you can increase its exposure to sunlight. Just in case it comes up Kimura recommends putting freshly repotted Junipers in full sun but, I don't recommend that in your growing area. Sorry if I contributed to making your post a flame war.

Thanks a lot Vance. I will get it in some shade and pot it up. I would say it was a loose compaction, if that makes sense. There was a decent amount of aggregate in the original mix, so the soil wasn't a complete organic mess. At any rate, I do not see any issue with two guys who love their art very much getting passionate about it. No apologies.

 

[iant]

One of the problems with slip potting something with less draining soil into a pot with free draining mix on the outside is you can get interface problems where the water just clings to the more absorbent inner root ball. You can be fooled by the top and outer freer draining soil and think that it's ready to water again when the inside rootball is still wet. You'll be fine if you're just careful not to overwater. But this time of year is perfect for repotting so why accept that issue now? You may find in 1 yr the tree hasn't done much and is at about the same state. If you get the roots happier now you might save yourself a year.
If you don't think the inner ball is that bad then you may be just fine as you are. Just don't judge the watering based on the outer stuff.
Ian

 

[Vance Wood]

One of the problems with slip potting something with less draining soil into a pot with free draining mix on the outside is you can get interface problems where the water just clings to the more absorbent inner root ball. You can be fooled by the top and outer freer draining soil and think that it's ready to water again when the inside rootball is still wet. You'll be fine if you're just careful not to overwater. But this time of year is perfect for repotting so why accept that issue now? You may find in 1 yr the tree hasn't done much and is at about the same state. If you get the roots happier now you might save yourself a year.
If you don't think the inner ball is that bad then you may be just fine as you are. Just don't judge the watering based on the outer stuff.
Ian

That was the reason for discussing the soil in the first place. This is a common mistake, mixing two drastically different soil mixes.

 

[jquast]

Read my site or don't, it's fine. I put it out there in case people like my work and want to see how I do it. It takes plenty of time and pays nothing, but I happen to enjoy it. It's also an outlet to share without getting into arguments with people who would rather snipe than learn.

Brian,

I for one really enjoy what you bring to this site as well as the information that you post on your blog. I'm always looking forward towards your latest blog posting and really appreciate the information and your experiences that you take the time to share with us.

jeff

 

[october]

I want to say something that you don't hear very often. Many times, junipers can and will thrive in compacted soil. Of course drainage is important. However, in many cases, I feel what we might feel is compacted, the tree might actually like the conditions it's in. For years now, I would see incredibly healthy trees in what seemed to be really compacted soil. If you have ever walked around a bonsai nursery, chances are you will find quite a few of their healthiest trees is what seems to be compacted soil. A while back, I had worked on a shohin juniper for my teacher. The tree was in magnificent health, yet the soil seemed like a compacted brick. Shortly after I had posed the question to my teacher about how many of these bonsai are beautiful and thriving in soil that many would consider compacted. He went into an explanation about how junipers that start off in great soil, even when the soil breaks down, the trees will thrive in the tighter space. Of course, this is the broken down version of his explanation.

All one has to do in walk around nurseries and they will see this put to the test. Also, some people don't repot their trees for 5,10,15 years plus and the trees do very well. Now, by saying all this, I am not advocating striving to keep compacted soil. However, if the tree is very healthy and enjoys it's conditions, perhaps we should not be so quick to disturb the root system or do unnecessary repots. Also, there are other factors that are usually not mentioned when one finds an unhealthy tree. So looking at a tree and saying it is not doing well because the soil is compacted might not be accurate in all cases It might be that there were other issues of neglect.

Here is a san jose juniper I picked up last season. The tree is in soil like a cement brick. It was one of the healthiest trees at the nursery.

Rob

 

[nathanbs]

I want to say something that you don't hear very often. Many times, junipers can and will thrive in compacted soil. Of course drainage is important. However, in many cases, I feel what we might feel is compacted, the tree might actually like the conditions it's in. For years now, I would see incredibly healthy trees in what seemed to be really compacted soil. If you have ever walked around a bonsai nursery, chances are you will find quite a few of their healthiest trees is what seems to be compacted soil. A while back, I had worked on a shohin juniper for my teacher. The tree was in magnificent health, yet the soil seemed like a compacted brick. Shortly after I had posed the question to my teacher about how many of these bonsai are beautiful and thriving in soil that many would consider compacted. He went into an explanation about how junipers that start off in great soil, even when the soil breaks down, the trees will thrive in the tighter space. Of course, this is the broken down version of his explanation.

All one has to do in walk around nurseries and they will see this put to the test. Also, some people don't repot their trees for 5,10,15 years plus and the trees do very well. Now, by saying all this, I am not advocating striving to keep compacted soil. However, if the tree is very healthy and enjoys it's conditions, perhaps we should not be so quick to disturb the root system or do unnecessary repots. Also, there are other factors that are usually not mentioned when one finds an unhealthy tree. So looking at a tree and saying it is not doing well because the soil is compacted might not be accurate in all cases It might be that there were other issues of neglect.

Here is a san jose juniper I picked up last season. The tree is in soil like a cement brick. It was one of the healthiest trees at the nursery.

Rob

I say that all the time. A Japanese black pine never seems happier than when it's root bound in compacted dirt in a nursery liner

 

[Vance Wood]

However and not wishing to play a devil's advocate I agree some trees can do really well in conditions that would choke a gopher. That all changes when you make the decision to put the tree into a bonsai training.

You are now forced to deal with the reality of this condition unless you are one of these people, like I used to be many years ago, who will force a tree from a nursery container into a bonsai pot. I was removing the least amount of soil from the old nursery root ball I could get away with. In my experience, I have found this only leads to a great many problems several years down the road. It does not in my opinion help the tree to provide pockets of good soil in a sea of bad.

 

[october]

However and not wishing to play a devil's advocate I agree some trees can do really well in conditions that would choke a gopher. That all changes when you make the decision to put the tree into a bonsai training.

You are now forced to deal with the reality of this condition unless you are one of these people, like I used to be many years ago, who will force a tree from a nursery container into a bonsai pot. I was removing the least amount of soil from the old nursery root ball I could get away with. In my experience, I have found this only leads to a great many problems several years down the road. It does not in my opinion help the tree to provide pockets of good soil in a sea of bad.

Yes, I agree with this. A bonsai thriving in compacted soil might not benefit from being moved into another container with added fresh soil. If this is the case, you really have to watch watering. Parts of the new root ball will be bone dry and others soaking wet. This is not good for any tree.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

I say that all the time. A Japanese black pine never seems happier than when it's root bound in compacted dirt in a nursery liner

That seems to be true to a point. I remember years ago when I was studying and searching for everything I could find about Japanese Whit Pine, I found this one obscure source that claimed; once the tree was repotted the fresh soil was purposely compacted around the roots with a wooden mallet. I have never seen this before or since, but at the time the source was pretty reputable, and it was Japanese.