Mugo Pine 1 Lowes find!

[DhD47]

Well, I've read al kinds of post from all over and from many from Vance. I'm not sure I got it all correct but I'm going to learn this and with help (thank you Vance and guys) I hope one of these mugos turnes out good. So far I've spent a little time about a month ago cutting back the candles and a few branches.
Now I started to wire the branches and will see what I come up with for style.
Oh yeah, I cleared off the soil from the top to find the base of the trunk and from what I found I like this one.
I know the wire job isn't done and far from a well done job but for my first try ever I think I'm on the right path.
Comments please.

 

[DhD47]

More photos

 

[benw3790]

Nice! I noticed that lowes started carrying mugos around here too, so I bought one the other day as well. It had two trunks (two seperate trees) so I seperated them and potted them up into some colanders. I think you did a great job starting off on the right foot. I'm sure vance will chime in! Keep up the good work. That one is definately nicer than the one I got!

 

[Vance Wood]

Just to let you know I'm watching what's going on with this tree. I am not quite sure what you intend for this guy or if you read my assembly of comments on Mugos posted on this site under a question for Vance thread. I am not yet at a point around here to put together a video on this issue so I am left with trying to describe verbally what to do, an exercise if futility it seems sometimes because people here what they want to hear and ignore what they don't. I know the subject is complicated I can't help that. Most of what I know about the species has been from trail and failure interspersed with a bit of success a time or two. If you can locate that thread please read it.

Your tree is young and probably bullet proof of some of the mistakes made and will probably do some interesting things in-spite of what I teach, but in the long run when the tree gets some years on it you might want to follow things a little more closely. You also, specifically about this tree, need to make some decisions about styling. Over time you are probably going to want to eliminate one or two of the major branches coming out at the base of the tree. You basically have the expansion of a four bud formation that developed and the rest of the tree grew from that orientation. Eventually, over time, if you can keep the tree alive, you are either going to want to discard the tree, because of this formation, or you are going to want to alter it into something more pleasing by eliminating at least one of those limbs or two.

Unfortunately this is the way this tree can grow when young. You almost never see one with a single trunk, they tend to grow all kinds of branches and trunks all over the place. It is up to you to eliminate those that are not bonsai. This is also why the Yamadori you see collected in Europe tend to be twisted with a lot of dead trunks and dead wood.

 

[Adair M]

It's hard to see what's going on with the tree. Cut the excess rim of the nursery can off so that you can see the trunk and nebari. Every pine tree just looks like a mass of needles when viewed from above.

Once you can actually see the trunk, then you can check out the nebari, movement, etc to pick a front.

THEN, you can discern what styling best shows off the trunk.

 

[Vance Wood]

Usually I will remove the tree from the container and remove the lose junk off the top of the soil mass. That way you can determine actually where the surface roots begin. This is another issue but for now you need to concern yourself with the actual base of the tree. From that view point you should get a better idea of what you can do with the tree. Sometimes the best you can do remove the garbage, establish a trunk line or accept the idea behind a series of multiple trunks and then just let the tree develop. When you have come to those conclusions you should put the tree back in the nursery pot of into a pond basket as long as you don't disrupt the roots too much.

I know I have posted this tree before and I think many of you know the story. However I just want you to realize that the portion of the trunk you see was below the surface of the soil that was piled in on top of the old soil surface when this tree was potted up. The point where the the tree goes off at an angle had another trunk going off to the left that was removed. The stub is now gone and the tree is obviously the way it is.

 

[DhD47]

Thanks guys.

Vance I did read and need to revisit the post you mentioned.

For the surface of the root in did clear off all the loose dirt and got down to a point there was more fine roots then dirt. I stopped there because I figured those roots will now die and I will slowly remove more until I get to the true base. I did find what will be the nebari but it was lower in the pot so I didn't want to cut off about half inch of roots from the top right now.

Vance is right and I need to get my head around the style for this tree now. That's why I'm not cutting branches I know I need to remove until I know the style I'm doing. I do know there will be a few of the lower branches cut off like Vance suggested. In photo 1 post 2 you see the first branches of the tree. I'm thinking the little branch going left from the trunk is going because this seems like the trees front. And yes I'm thinking one more from there but I can't cut anything until I know style.
Basically what I wanted to do was just wire it to get light into the inside of the tree to keep that area from ending up dead.
If I've done anything really wrong please let me know. I have 5 or more mugos to work and I don't want them all messed up.
Dave

 

[DhD47]

Ok Vance
I see I shouldn't be wiring until after June and bad timing of a few things.
I was going to repot this sinner and wanted to know if it is ok to cut the trots from the top rather than the bottom. I have to remote a lot from the top so had to ask to get it right. I really need to get the top removed so I can get this trunk showing.

Thanks.
Dave

 

[Vance Wood]

Probably; but in a lot of situations with roots and things impossible to get decent photo of it becomes questionable. As long as you stick to your principles and do only that you should be OK. As so often happens people will do this and think "Well--as long as I'm here it doesn't seem to much of a stretch to do this as well", this kind of thinking can and often does lead to disaster.

 

[DhD47]

Thanks. That's why I didn't clear more from the top until I repot. I'm reading the other post now and I'm going to keep to the schedule as you laid it out.
I hope I can keep this one alive. I think it has a really good looking tree because the trunk it has. If I can I'm thinking an upright formal style because the trunk but the foliage makes me think a slant design would work better. Guess we will see more later and any thoughts would be great to help this new guy get a grip.
Dave

Dave

 

[jeanluc83]

It looks typical of the Lowes mugos we get around here. They really aren't all that bad for the price. I picked up a couple last year to play with. They are great to work on but I can tell they will take some time to resolve their issues.

The first thing I did with mine was to clear out all the junk. These mugos are trimmed to be very dense so there is usually an accumulation of dead needles and branches. I then reduce the branches to two at each node and remove any bar branches. I also removed a couple of the octopus branches. In the end I removed about 50% of the foliage. All this was in an effort to correct some of the issues now before they get any worse and to get more light and air to the interior of the tree.

It's hard to see what's going on with the tree. Cut the excess rim of the nursery can off so that you can see the trunk and nebari. Every pine tree just looks like a mass of needles when viewed from above.

Once you can actually see the trunk, then you can check out the nebari, movement, etc to pick a front.

THEN, you can discern what styling best shows off the trunk.

Young mugos like this are just hard to photograph. There are so many branches and so much foliage no mater what all you get is a green ball of foliage. Vance has said it before, when shopping for mugos you need to judge them by feel not necessarily by looks.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks. That's why I didn't clear more from the top until I repot. I'm reading the other post now and I'm going to keep to the schedule as you laid it out.
I hope I can keep this one alive. I think it has a really good looking tree because the trunk it has. If I can I'm thinking an upright formal style because the trunk but the foliage makes me think a slant design would work better. Guess we will see more later and any thoughts would be great to help this new guy get a grip.
Dave

Dave

Here is the problem I see that you are having with this tree. I have been growing Mugos as bonsai for at least forty years and in all that time I have never run accros a tree that was a good candidate for a Formal upright. What I am afraid of here is that your are going to try to force this tree into something that will be far below what the tree is capable of becoming.

Now that we are on the road to Mugo Nirvana let's look at some world class Mugos. Search the Net, European growers like Walter Pall, Pavel Slavek, Salvadore Liperace all have sites or blogs with postings of real outstanding Mugo bonsai and not one of them is a Formal Upright. Most are collected trees which will give you an idea of the way these trees grow naturally and what they are likely to do.

 

[jk_lewis]

It's hard to see what's going on with the tree. Cut the excess rim of the nursery can off so that you can see the trunk and nebari. Every pine tree just looks like a mass of needles when viewed from above.

Once you can actually see the trunk, then you can check out the nebari, movement, etc to pick a front.

THEN, you can discern what styling best shows off the trunk.

Agree. Also, we can't tell anything about the shape of the tree or the branching from the photos. PLEASE take pictures from soil level, not from above. I know it's a little more work putting the tree on a table, then bending over to take the picture, but it is easier for us to give you needed help.

 

[Vance Wood]

Agree. Also, we can't tell anything about the shape of the tree or the branching from the photos. PLEASE take pictures from soil level, not from above. I know it's a little more work putting the tree on a table, then bending over to take the picture, but it is easier for us to give you needed help.

I keep preaching about the role, and importance, of photography in bonsai. You, (genericly speaking) make the claim; "Oh I have such a beautiful daughter;---- what do you think?" and you post a picture of her elbow, or the top of her head, what kind of response do you all think you are going to get? Unless you like being lied to you are going to have no less than a few tell you to get a better picture.

When you have a tree you have already looked at it closely from every angle (I hope) and you know what you are looking at. Even after posting a real horrid and cryptic photo you know what you are looking at; the problem is no body else has a clue. Here's an example: The summer before last I scored these eight Mugos: What do you think of them?

 

[Vance Wood]

The point being, for this seemingly contradictory photo, is to show people that when you go into a nursery hunting for Mugo Pines you will never find a tree from above, neither will you relay any thing you wish to share about the nature of the tree from the same point of view. The angle is wrong and the lighting is terrible. All of this is terrible in selecting a tree -----and in showing it off.

 

[DhD47]

Wow, wow, wow! I'm learning so much more now and not just about the trees but about the posting and how you don't realize you just posted a picture of an elbow and not the face. I will improve because of these help and I know in turn I will get better help myself.

Vance, I'm going to look for sample to what I want to style. I'm sure you know what I will find but I'm excited to see what I may find and see how it will work for me.

THANK YOU.
Dave

 

[barrosinc]

the first image is quite decent to give you an idea of the tree... can't say the same about 2 and 3. But 1 is helpful.

 

[Vance Wood]

Wow, wow, wow! I'm learning so much more now and not just about the trees but about the posting and how you don't realize you just posted a picture of an elbow and not the face. I will improve because of these help and I know in turn I will get better help myself.

Vance, I'm going to look for sample to what I want to style. I'm sure you know what I will find but I'm excited to see what I may find and see how it will work for me.

THANK YOU.
Dave

I'm sorry Dave I did not mean to pile a lot of junk on top of you, but every little issue I have brought up will save you a lot of grief and time if you take them to heart. Bonsai is an art that depends on details for a great degree. See above: I'm going to look for a sample to what I want to style. You may be able to do this with JBP because of the way they grow or even a Scots Pine for the same reason but not a Mugo. You can look for years and never find that tree you are looking for. You need to study the Yamadori trees you will see on a lot of European sites. Study them over and over again until you see them in your sleep. Eventually you will start to recognize the possibilities within a tree. This took me years to realize that you let the tree tell you what to do not the other way around. I know this sounds crazy but it is none the less true.

This is the way the tree looked last year as I once again took a look at it and did not like what I saw. Someone here said it looked like one of the Angry Birds.

This is the tree four years ago before I found a purpose for it.

This is the same tree before any design choices had been attempted. It was only placed in one of my training planters to develop the root system I wanted.

This was about seven years ago.

 

[DhD47]

Vance,

Please pile it on! I figure more I hear the better chance I have to learn something. I've been looking at samples and I can see what I'm thinking and how I can work the tree into a style that will work (not a formal upright). Thanks for the names to direct me to research. I'm putting together a file of samples to help me figure out what will work with the trunk and branches the tree has. I know many will not but looking at the samples helps me see what I can or more importantly can't do. I see what I did wrong was look at the bonsai styles and see what I wanted to turn the tree into and not look at the tree and see what it could be turned into. I totally understand the point you are making about art and having to see what it can do. I'm not sure why I was missing this. After all, I was trained in design years ago and had a like as an artist before I worked in IT.

I can see how a mugo pine (or any bonsai tree) will take years to just get to a base style. I'll keep posting as this move along and I'll be starting new posts for each Mugo Pine soon.

So, please be sure to let me know if I'm missing something or if I need to watch what I'm doing. This is how I will learn and not end up with a pile of firewood.

Dave

 

[Vance Wood]

If you want to do this learn this first: Fire wood is not an option. You may produce something that looks like it was expelled from the back side of an Elephant, none the less you are going to be required to keep the tree and treat it like it is one of your best efforts. One day as you grow and the tree starts to age you will all of a sudden realize that there is a gold nugget setting there right in front of you. Then you will turn it into the masterpiece it deserves to be. Many of my so called good bonsai suffered this fate early on.