Most Expensive Tree?

"Ya think, it would have to be those cats on the west coast or east coast with all the money, cause it ain't happening here in Oklahoma, I can assure you."

Well, that's not surprising. Nothing really happens in Oklahoma...:D:D:D:D:D sorry,
 
Thank you Bill and Walter for giving us an update on this tree. I always wondered what happened with it, since I figured that I would have seen it somewhere recently if it was still alive. It would be hard for such a magnificent tree to fly under the radar.

It is clear to me now that the $500,000 number is a symbolic figure, nobody would really pay that much here in the US for a bonsai. The reason why a wealthy person wouldn't is NOT because the tree is not worth that much. Such an ancient tree may in fact be priceless (or invaluable, as Walter put it), so the $500,000 is not an unreasonable price for a very wealthy person. But the main reason is the RISK involved in the investment. Nobody would take such a risk, to see the $500,000 evaporate into nothing just because someone made a stupid mistake. In Japan people would easily pay such an amount because there is a SYSTEM in place (a network of nurseries, bonsai artists, and technicians), just to protect these investments, and people have trust in this system. The reason they trust the system is that there is a good track record of keeping alive these trees for many generations.

Here in the US there is no such system, except a few designated individuals who can do the job. So the risk is just too high. Remember, that when one spends a few thousand dollars on a bonsai, that is called hobby spending. But when you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, that is not hobby spending anymore. That is called investment. The buyer is likely to love bonsai and be passionate about it, but spending such an amount is still considered investment for anybody in their right mind. Only an idiot would waste a million dollars on a hobby (which there are quite a few, of course). So, in order for the Americans to invest large amounts into bonsai, there must be a better system in place to protect their investment.

I just know what Marco has told me about trees selling in Japan. BUT I can tell you with all certainly that koi sell for over a million dollars in Japan. The wealthy owner doesn't even have a pond, he hires a professional to take care of his fish, it is brought to the prestigious shows, such as the all Japan show, if the owner wins the show, he collects his ribbon and doesn't see the koi until the next show. The point I'm trying to make is, that there are bonsai owners in Japan that do the same thing.
I know of a wealthy Englishman that keeps expensive koi himself and has one of the finest bonsai collections in Europe and he never touches a tree. Same here in America.

keep it green,
Harry
 
IMHO, there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much fixation on $$$$$$$$$$$ these days.

Come on Rick, how about " way too much fixation on $$ since the dawn of mankind". We spend 75% of our waking hours at our workplace. What does that tell you? It means that we spend most of our lives, trying to make a living. You bet it is about money.

I love bonsai as much as anybody else, but I pay a lot of attention to how much I spend on it. A month ago there was a bonsai sale at a club, and there was a gorgeous literati black pine on sale, for about $150. I would have loved to buy it (and try to improve it), but I was 5 minute late and someone else got it. I would have really loved to get that tree at that price. But what if the seller asked $350 for it? I could still easily afford it, and I would still love the way it looked. So, you would think that I would still want it for $350, right? Well, the answer is no way. It would be too complicated (and too long) to explain here why, but the bottom line is that we do care a lot about how much we pay, no matter how much we love it. I need to mention here that I am talking about the bonsai hobbyist, not the business man. I am stricty a hobbyist, never made any money on bonsai, I only do it because the love of it.
 
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"Ya think, it would have to be those cats on the west coast or east coast with all the money, cause it ain't happening here in Oklahoma, I can assure you."

Well, that's not surprising. Nothing really happens in Oklahoma...:D:D:D:D:D sorry,

Are you familiar with college football.....:cool:
7 National Championships, 5 Heisman Trophy winners, just to refresh your memory....:p

keep it green,
Harry
 
I just know what Marco has told me about trees selling in Japan. BUT I can tell you with all certainly that koi sell for over a million dollars in Japan. The wealthy owner doesn't even have a pond, he hires a professional to take care of his fish, it is brought to the prestigious shows, such as the all Japan show, if the owner wins the show, he collects his ribbon and doesn't see the koi until the next show. The point I'm trying to make is, that there are bonsai owners in Japan that do the same thing.
I know of a wealthy Englishman that keeps expensive koi himself and has one of the finest bonsai collections in Europe and he never touches a tree. Same here in America.

keep it green,
Harry

Exactly, you are right on the spot, Harry. The wealthy businessmen in Japan look at it as investment and prestige. A whole industry takes care of the koi and bonsai, the owner doesn't have to worry a minute about their safety. In the US, it is a hobby, and no matter how rich one is, there is only so much that one is willing to spend on a hobby.
 
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Texas, 3 National Championships, 2 Heisman Trophy winners...........:p

keep it green,
Harry
 
Rockm:
I've had this book since it was published back in the 1980's. If you want to see how bonsai in the US has progressed, look inside this book. Some of the trees are not "outstanding."

That's funny, I was thinking the same thing. When I bought the book 15 years ago, I was in awe of every tree in it. Now, I look at some of them and wonder how amateurish they look. Bonsai indeed has changed a lot.
 
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What is important to understand is...
Some people look at Bonsai like a commodity, and diminish its real importance and value in doing so.
Is that you?

Mr. Holmes

That has to be the years most redonculous think I have heard so far. So your saying that people like Brent shouldn't make a living of this commodity? That's very out of touch with reality.
 
Texas v. Okla. (since 1900)--Texas-57--Ok-40...:D
 
That has to be the years most redonculous think I have heard so far. So your saying that people like Brent shouldn't make a living of this commodity? That's very out of touch with reality.

I agree, paintings are also a commodity, and sometime very valuable commodity. Some people dedicate their lives to enjoy and collect paintings. But when they decide to sell a Van Gogh, they receive millions of dollars for it. It is not demeaning to the artist or to the painting itself, it is in fact an honor to receive such high monetary value for it. And it is great for the art itself.

Brent, Marco, Walter, Bill and other professionals see bonsai as their passion, but also as a commodity from which they should make a good living. Unfortunately, it is very hard to get rich from it, which is a shame.
 
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Everything in the good old USA is about money, those that tell you it doesn't, either have too much or not enough. Those that tell us they would rather grow their own trees from seed are kidding themselves. Give anyone that posts here 100,000 to spend on trees and see how many packets of seeds they buy. That statement will pissoff a lot of people, but you know it's true and that's not my intent, I'm just trying to make a point. The world is what it is and money talks.

keep it green,
Harry
 
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Harry,
I don't suppose that you are going to tell us whom that might be? I was going along with Rick too about it not being necessary, but now my curiousity piqued.:p

Rob

Sorry, I'm sworn to secrecy, but I will tell you his worse tree of at least 100, is 5 times better than my best tree.

keep it green,
Harry
 
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There is an old and very true saying "If you have to ask what is it worth, then you can't afford it".

Not sure who said the above, but I would be very cautious to trusting him..

I work with investing the money of many high net-worth families here on the West Coast. This is our business.
Trust me when I say this, the first question that these wealthy people will ask when buying something, is "what is it worth". And then the bargaining starts...
A lot of them are self-made millionaires, so they care about every penny they spend. That's how they got rich, in the first place. Don't fool yourself by thinking that you can sell them anything at any price :)
 
Fourmilemarc,

You are interjecting your own words here my banjo plucking friend.

I did NOT say that Bonsai should not be sold.
I did NOT say that know one should buy Bonsai.
I did NOT say that they have no monetary value.
I did NOT say expensive Bonsai is a bad thing.
I did NOT say cheap Bonsai are a good thing.
I did NOT say that people shouldn't make a living selling them.

What I said was simple.
The intention was to point out that those who are more concerned with the price or the monetary value of a Bonsai than the Bonsai itself, maybe, are missing the point. For me, its about the tree. If you think differently, thats fine, I have no desire to change your mind.

Mark
 
.... those who are more concerned with the price or the monetary value of a Bonsai than the Bonsai itself, maybe, are missing the point. For me, its about the tree.

This is an interesting observation, and seems to be a valid one. I often heard this before, and sounds like coming from an honest and passionate view about bonsai.

But is this observation true? Are they missing the point? What point?
I hope you don't mind if I analyze this a little more in depth, since this view is held by many other bonsaists.

Let's say that I am a businessman, and have 5 million dollars to invest. My first opportunity is to buy a fast food franchise (McDonalds). I am not passionate about hamburgers, and in fact, I am a vegetarian. The only reason to buy this joint is because I want to invest my money into a lucrative business. But I do a great job running the franchise, I sell the best quality burgers in the area, and customers love to eat at my place. The question may arise: how come that I don't care about burgers, but I run my busines at the highest standard possible (i.e.:make the best burger in town)? The easy answer is, because I am a good businessman, and I understand the concept that a well-run business pays much better than a poorly run business.

After five years, the area is re-zoned, and I have to sell my fast food franchise. Looking for a new opportunity to buy another business, I run into a friend who has a bonsai nursery and a bonsai import-export business. He is struggling to survive, and is willing to sell for a very reasonable price. I see a great opportunity to buy the land from him (I see a good potential for appreciation), and I love the challenge to turn the business around and make it into a profitable one. My interest is strictly business, I don't particularly care about the bonsai itself. But I want to offer the same top quality product as in my previous ventures, and hire the best gardeners, contract a young and talented bonsai artist, and select the best providers to import from China and Vietnam.

In a few years I manage to turn the bonsai import and nursery business around, and make it really profitable. The customers are happy because they get a large variety of material at reasonable price. Since I am the only bonsai nursery in the area, a lot of new people take up the hobby. I also hire teachers to hold weekly bonsai classes. Everybody is happy. I particularly enjoy this business because it is more laid back and there is less pressure than in my former ventures. I even start to take up some interest in bonsai, myself.

Here is my question:

People who claim that those who do bonsai for business, and not because for bonsai's sake are missing the point. What point are they missing?

The other argument is that they care about the tree, and not the money. This argument infers that caring only about the money is wrong. But, as the above scenario has shown, the primary purpose of a good business is to make money. And a good business sells product that satisfies the customer's need. The bonsai hobbyists from the above story are thrilled to have the nursery around, because it satisfies all their needs. They couldn't care less about the owner's personal preference, views, or creeds.

At this point, someone could counter-argue: Well, we are concerned about those charlatans who rip off people and sell lousy products at exorbitant prices.
My response to that is: this is not how a well run business is done. There is good business and bad business. The good business thrives, the bad one has little chance to survive.

So, as you see from above the claim that people should care about the bonsai and not the money has no basis at all. As long as you can offer a valuable service to the bonsai community, it matters not what your primary motives are.
There is room for business in bonsai, and we can all benefit from it. Business is just as important as the consumer(hobbyist), since they offer products and services that the cosumer could not otherwise acquire.
 
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People who claim that those who do bonsai for business, and not because for bonsai's sake are missing the point. What point are they missing?

Attila put a good analytical spin on this statement, and is something I, for the most part, agree with.

I would spin it a little differently and perhaps a little more emotionally as this is near and dear to my heart. Outside of handful of people like Martin Brussels and the like. Most full time, dyed in the wool, bonsai business owners, because of their passion for bonsai are in this business. It certainly is not for the money.

The bonsai market place is a small patch of ground with its patrons flung far and wide. A vast majority of enthusiasts are locked into a budget to enjoy their hobby. Now, if we were talking baseball or even fishing that small hobby budget would be very different story for a business owner based on the size and demographics of that group.

So based on our small niche group, just how does anyone figure that bonsai business men are in it for the money? All the ones I know gave up a lucrative job (relativly speaking) to emerce themselves in this art form to further their own art and to help others excel in theirs while trying to pay the bills.

If you don't believe me try working a local Bonsai convention or show. Then do the math of what your average sale was. Then deduct your expenses...the net should show that your not in this business to become J. Paul Getty.

Hope this is a localized belief...otherwise I fear we will see bonsai vendors on the corner with knob cutters in one hand and a sign that say " will prune for food" in the other.
 
Attila put a good analytical spin on this statement, and is something I, for the most part, agree with.

I would spin it a little differently and perhaps a little more emotionally as this is near and dear to my heart. Outside of handful of people like Martin Brussels and the like. Most full time, dyed in the wool, bonsai business owners, because of their passion for bonsai are in this business. It certainly is not for the money.

The bonsai market place is a small patch of ground with its patrons flung far and wide. A vast majority of enthusiasts are locked into a budget to enjoy their hobby. Now, if we were talking baseball or even fishing that small hobby budget would be very different story for a business owner based on the size and demographics of that group.

So based on our small niche group, just how does anyone figure that bonsai business men are in it for the money? All the ones I know gave up a lucrative job (relativly speaking) to emerce themselves in this art form to further their own art and to help others excel in theirs while trying to pay the bills.

If you don't believe me try working a local Bonsai convention or show. Then do the math of what your average sale was. Then deduct your expenses...the net should show that your not in this business to become J. Paul Getty.

Hope this is a localized belief...otherwise I fear we will see bonsai vendors on the corner with knob cutters in one hand and a sign that say " will prune for food" in the other.

I like your sense of humor, you old silver back. You must have a wad of money stashed away that the IRS doesn't even know about, since you deal in cash. Do you even have a SS number........:p

keep it green,
Harry
 
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